Alright Deep, Let's Talk Structure!

[Dwight Hottle]

Roger not to go off topic but you are right about big pike seeking colder water & dissolved oxygen. A buddy & I were out fishing after dinner on a far northern Canadian lake. I was watching the depth finder from the back of the boat when I saw two large marks on bottom in 60-65 fow. I told Dave let's drop some jigs/reaper tails down & see if we could not catch those lake trout. I hooked one & imagine my surprise upon seeing  it at the surface. Those lake trout turned out to be pike sitting on the bottom in 60 fow. Both were big teenagers.

[J Francho]

I would agree with the pike statements as well.

[Team9nine]

This thread began as a question to Catt posed by ‘Deep’, but was somehow hijacked by Buck Perry..LOL.

Indeed, Buck Perry revolutionized the sport of fishing, but that was about 50 years ago.

About 50 years ago, Hi-Fi and Color TV revolutionized the electronics industry, but nothing that happened

50 years ago stopped the wheels of progress. If it were me, I'd want Catt to answer his own question,

because Tom has the benefit of radio-tracking results that eluded the early pioneers (save Homer Circle),

not to mention 3D down & side-imaging sonar, a wealth of data provided by pro tourney results

and last but not least, his own experience.

 

 

Roger

 

This thread was started by Catt, who carried over a question from another thread and started a new one. He answered that question in the following 5 sentences of his reply. At that point should we have just locked the thread? Was this meant as a private conversation between these two, and not an open forum discussion? Did I miss that part somewhere? Do we need a new forum section, perhaps titled "Ask Catt" to avoid this issue in the future? After someone else added their thoughts in the original thread, Deep replied: "Thank you. I was hoping some of the members newer to fishing structure would take this forward." - So confusing...I apologized for having to use 6 threads, but BR post limits of 750 kb make posting any attachment of size in a single venture impossible. Trust me, would have been a whole lot simpler for me if I could have done a single post with just one attachment.

 

The bottom line is there are about half a dozen of us who obviously have our own opinions and approaches on this structure stuff, and are all willing to post in an effort to help answer questions and provide insight to BR readers. You (Roger) have been just as guilty, if you want to call it that, by posting in every single structure thread, too. Could you not be accused of thread hijacking in that regard also? My approach to structure fishing is based upon Buck's original insights. If you or others think that is 50 year old outdated information, that's your prerogative. Carry on with your 'egg to grave' analysis, Roger - whatever works for you. My guess is that we all (Deep, A-Jay, J Francho, Catt, WRB, Dwight, etc.) catch more than our fair share of fish with our respective approaches, and readers can evaluate for themselves what they like or what they don't about any of our thoughts on the matter.

 

Next time, perhaps the OP should just clarify at the start of a thread which ones are open to discussion and which ones are private conversations so we don't end up off track like this again 

 

-T9

[Dwight Hottle]

I suspect Dwight may do something similar, though Erie actually has interesting structure. For Ontario, the south shore in particular, I literally ignore the first 30' of contours, and focus on what is there from 30 to about 100'. Treat that 30' line like you would the shoreline, when visually locating fish. That doesn't mean I fish those depths, but that's where I try to focus my chart studies. Those structures are what affect bait movement, and predator location. It's not something you'll ever see staring at the graph - they're too big, miles big in some cases. I use the GPS to get within a few acres of where I want to fish, and the graph shows me fish, and/or bait. The fish might be in 15' or 45', but that zone I described above is what gets me to the general spot.

 

 

Your pretty much spot on J. I find most bait balls starting in the 20-40 fow zone.

[A-Jay]

 

Next time, perhaps the OP should just clarify at the start of a thread which ones are open to discussion and which ones are private conversations so we don't end up off track like this again 

 

-T9

 

 

I thoroughly enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on this subject.  Part of what makes it so interesting for me is how each angler views the matter. 

 

The thought process & the approach as well as where each angler believes the priorities lie are all different ways of putting the puzzle together. 

 

  The reality may be that once that puzzle is finished and the photo's are posted, only the bass knows for sure how it happened.  The rest of us are just guessing. 

 

But that's the fun part.

 

A-Jay

[tnbassfisher]

These are always my favorite threads. Just a ton of information about the fish themselves and how to find them. Not a meantiom of a lire choice, color, or anything. Just flat out info about fishing. Awesome

[deep]

Hey, it's all good. I guess part of the problem might be we all fish in different parts of the country. My lakes are tiny. A 50 or 100 mile stretch devoid of fish might translate to a couple hundred yards stretch for me.

 

I think I owe Catt and everyone else an apology. When Catt said " I start deep and work inwards towards shallow water", he probably meant start looking, instead of starting fishing? my mistake.

 

Thanks for the Buck Perry article, and the video links. The article was great, the videos I'm watching right now.

 

Anyway, Catt, so you might still fish offshore, but are fishing for shallow fish (some of the time), right? A hump (underwater island) maybe?

[F14A-B]

I think the contribution from many sources is always very interesting. People add information from all parts of the country and that's a good thing... A young person can take what may apply to his fishing waters and file the rest away...

[00 mod]

I do not think I could possibly add anything to this conversation, as I am a young buck at this compared to you old farts! 

 

But what I will add, and this goes with what Deep just said, is a couple of the best things a fisherman can do is A) surround himself with better, wiser, more experienced fishermen.  Most of the time Older(Dwight and Andy!!!)

 

Travel as much as possible fishing all different types of water, conditions, depths, structures, etc.

 

Jeff

[DRH2O]

Seasonal and daily weather considerations aside, I typically start my chart surveys at the deep water then look for the best looking spawning area/feeding shelf that relates to it. Working strictly off the map, I'm looking for structures (contour situations) that connect the best looking shallows to the deepest water available in the area, making a special note of the place most likely to have the sharpest break to the deep water (contact point). A case could be made that whether I start by looking at the deep water or the shallows is irrelevant, because what I'm really after is a structure that completely connects the two (the route).

 

Once I actually get on the water to fish, however, I always start in the shallows. Shallow fish are more often easier to catch than deep fish, and if I'm checking out some promising structures for active fish, I'll generally find them more quickly in the shallows. After I find some active fish up shallow, though, usually the first thing I'll do is move out to the "first" break-line out from the shallows and start working my way towards the drop off (contact point) looking for the bigger fish.

 

~Denny

[papajoe222]

Deep - and others:

 

My apologies for having to do this post in (6) sections, but file size limitations require it. Hopefully this all works, as it might answer a lot of questions. This is one of Buck's better articles from Fishing Facts magazine that he published concerning the basics of using reservoir structures to locate fish. 

 

Note/edit: Catt covered much of this in his "Demystifying Structure" thread. The article helps make it easier to understand what he was talking about since it has so many pictures/examples included. 

 

-T9

 

Buck_Res_Part_1.pdf

I remember both the man and the magazine.  I also remember highlighting the different articles.  This is one of the few magazines I kept. I even had binders for them as I refered to the different articles often.  Thanks for the great information and the trip down memory lane.

[scaleface]

I start out fishing deep often . If I think the bass will be hanging off shore I want to find out as fast as I can. Deep for me is 10 , 15 to  20 foot. The water here is always at least stained and 15 to 20 foot   is where the thermoclines form if its that time of year. 

[Catt]

Team9nine, Elwood (Buck) Perry brought to bass fishing what Great Lakes, Ocean, & Gulf fishermen already understood, structure fishing. He gave us the nomenclature and definitions that are still accepted today; his work is an excellent foundation on which to build. While buck is a starting point his should not be an ending point.

deep, I fish "shallow" water, it's just not attached to a bank.

Denny, really! Your first paragraph was my next point!

A well know guide on Toledo Bend told me " for every bass you catch off the bank there are 5 behind your boatvwaiting to be caught."

[deep]

deep, I fish "shallow" water, it's just not attached to a bank.

 

 

Ok thanks for the clarification.

 

My next question would be what do you do when there's no shallow water that's not attached to a shoreline.

 

Let me give you a couple of examples from one of my reservoirs.

 

1. I have an old roadbed there, most of it in 30 FOW or more. I have caught some nice fish off that structure (there are a couple of other structures the roadbed intersects with) fishing topwaters or shallow running baits.

 

2. I also have a hump that's in 40 FOW sitting of the tip of a point (with a saddle). Topwaters work great here in late summer.

 

I don't know if the fish are suspended- but still relating to the structures- or what. But I can catch them.

 

Are these shallow fish in your book?

[RoLo]

Team9nine, Elwood (Buck) Perry brought to bass fishing what Great Lakes, Ocean, & Gulf fishermen already understood, structure fishing. He gave us the nomenclature and definitions that are still accepted today; his work is an excellent foundation on which to build. While buck is a starting point his should not be an ending point.

deep, I fish "shallow" water, it's just not attached to a bank.

Denny, really! Your first paragraph was my next point!

A well know guide on Toledo Bend told me " for every bass you catch off the bank there are 5 behind your boatvwaiting to be caught."

 

A small statement; a 'mighty' message!

 

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Shallow is where the food is produced; It's called the "photic zone". Deep is where the security and environmental stability lie. Matters less exactly where these are in relation to the land, just that they are close enough together that fish have ready access to both.

 

And some clarity on the deep to shallow movements as I understand it: Such movements are most important in a seasonal context -which would make them "migrations" which answers the short term depth change issue. Buck did say that movements from the deep occurred "once or twice daily" so he wasn't (just) talking seasonally -which in terms of depth change is most likely erroneous. This does not preclude lateral movements however, from suspension to a shallow feeding shelf. And again, this "feeding shelf" could be attached to the shoreline (as in smaller waters, or steeper sided reservoirs), not attached to a shoreline (offshore), and it could also be not attached to anything at all, simply fish relating to schools of pelagic prey -something known to happen in some lakes, esp with smallmouth. I suspect however, that even those pelagic smallmouths "touch ground" every now and then on major structures. Probably even more so with pelagically focused largemouths -largemouth being different animals energetically.

[Dwight Hottle]

Very informative Paul. I have almost always fished for those smallmouth suspended or on the move. My personal weakness has always been those smallies touching ground compared to the average bass fisherman who always target the bottom feeders. The smallmouth on the move have always been my easy Pickens.

[Catt]

deep, go back to the very beginning; deep water is relevant to the body of water you are fishing!

Roadbed defined: The surface of the road can be dirt, gravel, asphalt, or concrete. Country roads, farm market roads, state highways, old driveways, or logging roads will hold bass provided they are situated at the right location.

Roadbed logic: Roadbeds provide bass with a distinctive travel route with a built in edge and a variety of bottom hardness's. Concentrate on sweet spots that offer something different from the rest of the road. Sweet spots are usually located along the edge of a road and consist of but not limited to drainage culverts, ditches, washouts, rocks, old hedgerows, stumps lines, fence lines, and bar ditches. With roadbeds thete are usually several sweet spots not just one or two; look for these spots around sharp bends and road intersections.

Running the roads; A Carolina Rig is perfectly suited for becoming familiar with a roadbed; after you feel comfortable with the contour and have found sweet spots any technique will work.

[Catt]

I feel a need to add a disclaimer

It is hard to discuss how to fish stucture without talking cover!

I'll address your other questions ASAP!

[deep]

Don't have too much cover unfortunately, unless you include rockpiles. But rock is structure lol.

 

Anyway, no worries. I'm just rambling along; maybe someone can pick up a clue or two. I know I have picked up a bunch already.

 

So here's (part of) the roadbed I was talking about. Had to crop the pic a little. It goes on straight for a while (to the left of your screen) until it hits the main creek. The trees I assume were chopped down before flooding- because I can't feel them.

 

How would you fish this section? Everything you see have been under water for the last ~70 years.

 

[Catt]

Road crosses a creek?

Bridge?

Sweet spot!

[J Francho]

How would I fish that spot?

Frequently, lol.

[deep]

But that sweet spot is under 60 FOW! I'm catching shallow fish from it though.

[Catt]

But that sweet spot is under 60 FOW! I'm catching shallow fish from it though.

Ya don't gotta fish the bottom

[deep]

That's what I found out after a LOT of trials and mostly errors.