Reel Gearing Vs Inches Retrieved : Turn Of The Reel Handle And Mechanical Advantage

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

 

This started as a response to another thread but I figured it was enough of a divergence that I probably should create a new thread.

 

You'll very rarely see me discussing reel gear ratios anymore.  I've done it once or twice on this board prior to realizing exactly how much reels have changed since the ones I've always been used to.  I only want the bottom line of inches retrieved for inches of distance I move the reel handle.

 

C = π • d , where C is circumference (or distance traveled per turn) and d is diameter.  Let's say the reel has 30IPT of retrieve.

 

For a 3" reel handle,

 

C = π • 3 ≈ 9.42 inches.

 

That means that for every 30" of line retrieved, 9.42" is traveled by the reel handle.  The overall ratio is 3.18 : 1 .

 

Now, take that same reel and give it a 3.5" handle:

 

C = π • 3.5 ≈ 11 inches. 

 

This means that for every 30" of line retrieved, 11" is traveled by the reel handle.  The overall ratio is therefore 2.73 : 1 .

 

For comparison, an Abu Garcia 5500 from say, 1975 has a retrieve of 23IPT.  The stock handle has an center-to-center length of 2.17" at the knob centers.  We'll say 2.20" as this this easier to work with.

 

Plug'n'chug:

 

C = π • 2.20 ≈ 6.91 inches.  (You see where this is going...)

 

This means that for every 23" of line retrieved, 6.91" of distance is traveled by the reel handle.  This is an overall ratio of about 3.32 : 1 .

 

Of course, we take that same reel and put a 3.5" handle on it (C = π • 3.5 ≈ 11 inches), the overall ratio drops to

 

23:11 or 2.09 :1 .

 

Math is some fun stuff, isn't it?

 

I don't care what the inside gears are.  The gears are there to work with the spool and reel handle to make the reel feel a certain way (ergonomics) and to give the reel a certain mechanical advantage.

 

Internal gearing only gives about half the picture. 

 

So why the change?  Well, simply put, ergonomics.  Larger reel handles get the elbow and shoulder working, allowing more initial power to be imparted.  With that small 2.20" reel handle referenced for the '75 5500, motion is pretty much limited to the wrist and forearm.  What's stronger?  The muscles controlling the elbow and shoulder, of course.

 

So you want to get a certain retrieve rate out of a certain lure, right?  Well, the 3" handle on the 30IPT reel and the 2.20" handle on the 23IPT reel get very close to the same performance.  So why choose the 3" handle reel for faster speed?

 

It feels better.  It fatigues less because of the muscle groups used.  You could use both reels with about the same effect for maybe 15 minutes, then the advantage of the stronger muscle groups would begin to show.  That is, if you're a typical person with more power in his biceps and chest than in his forearms.  If you're built like Popeye, you might just have a better time with the short handle!

 

My contention is that reel gearing is mostly hype.  Sure, if you're comparing, say, a Black Max to a Pro Max, you'll have two reels that are similar enough that the only real point of difference is the internal gearing.

 

If you start comparing a Black Max to a 5600c3, however, you'll have a radically different feel, and not just because of the different shapes.  The two reels are similar in ratio, the Black Max being 6.4:1 in gearing while the 5600c3 is 6.3:1 in gearing, but the Black Max has two inches-per-turn less than the 5600.

 

A better comparison would be a 5500c3 and a Black Max.  The 5500c3 has gearing of 5.3:1 but brings in 26IPT!  The Black Max, with its 6.4:1 gearing, only brings in 28IPT.

 

I've not worked out the math regarding handle length on these to reels, and therefore don't know the overall mechanical advantages displayed by the two.

 

My suggestion for selecting a reel is to figure out how long a handle is most comfortable for you, and then decide what you want your retrieve rate to be.  Then you can calculate the gearing you need to arrive at the reel that's best for you.

 

That's how I do it, anyway.

 

Regards,

 

Josh

[BobP]

Another simple way to find out is to look at the BassPro online catalog, which lists the "inches per turn" or "recovery" for the reels they sell.

[Josh Smith]

Another simple way to find out is to look at the BassPro online catalog, which lists the "inches per turn" or "recovery" for the reels they sell.

 

Yep, I do -- and the above is why I do instead of relying on gear ratios.

 

I think I might have gotten carried away in the explanation, though.

 

My wife says I'm a nerd from a family of nerds. 

 

Josh

[iabass8]

There's no industry standard in the relation to IPT and gear ratio. Most reel manufacturers are different. Just look at the box or the website for the info.

Also, I don't think you were getting at this but just incase, handle length in a reel had no effect on it's retrieve rate/IPT. A 102mm handle retrieves the same as a 30mm on the same reel.

[Josh Smith]

Also, I don't think you were getting at this but just incase, handle length in a reel had no effect on it's retrieve rate/IPT. A 102mm handle retrieves the same as a 30mm on the same reel.

 

Bigger circle = longer distance traveled. 

 

Regards,

 

Josh

[iabass8]

Bigger circle = longer distance traveled. 

 

Regards,

 

Josh

I understand you want to come across to seem like a nerd. I'm going to politely say that you have not thought about this, are jumping to a very "simple" conclusion and you are 100% incorrect. this topic has been discussed time and time again when somebody (no offense), like yourself, thinks the same thing. This is a very, very basic idea that for some reason you are not grasping even after the other topic. If your handle moves 400 miles or 400 centimeters on the same reel to complete one turn of the handle, the IPT is the same regardless of handle length. A longer or shorter handle cannot in any way shape of form change the gearing on a reel. the only thing you are doing is changing how long it takes to turn a handle. in no way is the IPT changed. This is a very simple idea that for some reason or another you are over complicating.

[flyfisher]

Bigger circle = longer distance traveled. 

 

Regards,

 

Josh

 

true for the reel handle but not for the gear that the handle is attached to and subsequently drives the gear that turns the spool...

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

Bigger circle = longer distance traveled. 

 

Regards,

 

Josh

 

Well your hand may move farther with a longer handle but the line moved per 360 degree travel will remain the same.

[iabass8]

If you want a more in depth answer to this, these topics will help.

 

http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15481

http://www.tackletour.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51521

http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=34236

[WRB]

The diameter that matters is the reel spool diameter where the line lays at whatever amount of line that is on the spool.

If you divide the gear ratio into the inch per turn, then divide that by 3.14 (pi) you get the reel spool diameter used to calculate IPT. What is interesting the actual reel spool diameter is much smaller measured over the spooled line. When you make a cast the diameter of spooled line gets even smaller, directly changing IPT factor.

The reel handle doesn't change gear ratio, it has an affect on torque being applied due to longer lever and the speed your hand is moving.

Tom

[J Francho]

The math looks flimsy. Gear ratio is constant. You don't go on reverse to get it.

[TiNuts]

There's a difference between the set gear ratio of the gear set and the "effective ratio" from handle to line. It's the same concept as putting larger wheels/tires on a vehicle. You didn't change the gear ratio of the drive train, but your engine will certainly turn a different rpm for the same road speed. For a given engine rpm, the wheels will still turn at the rpm determined by the gear ratio, but due to the larger circumference, more distance will be traveled per revolution of the larger tires. Therefore, for same revolutions per minute, larger tires will give you larger distance per minute.

With a longer handle, you will have to crank your hand faster for the same spool speed (ipt). Or you can crank your hand at the same speed which will result in a slower spool speed. But as said above, the spool revolutions per handle revolution is a locked ratio.

IMO, Ipt is no more informative than gear ratio as it also depends on how much line is on the spool and that spec will only be accurate for a short period of time.

[aavery2]

There's a difference between the set gear ratio of the gear set and the "effective ratio" from handle to line. It's the same concept as putting larger wheels/tires on a vehicle. You didn't change the gear ratio of the drive train, but your engine will certainly turn a different rpm for the same road speed. For a given engine rpm, the wheels will still turn at the rpm determined by the gear ratio, but due to the larger circumference, more distance will be traveled per revolution of the larger tires. Therefore, for same revolutions per minute, larger tires will give you larger distance per minute.

With a longer handle, you will have to crank your hand faster for the same spool speed (ipt). Or you can crank your hand at the same speed which will result in a slower spool speed. But as said above, the spool revolutions per handle revolution is a locked ratio.

IMO, Ipt is no more informative than gear ratio as it also depends on how much line is on the spool and that spec will only be accurate for a short period of time.

I.P.T. is not effected by the speed you turn the handle. I.P.T is a measurement of inches of line retrieved per one rotation of the spool. With everything else being equal, it makes not difference if it takes 1 sec or 1 week to complete that rotation, the retrieval rate (I.P.T.) will be exactly the same.

[J Francho]

Ok, I'll play. How does one measure "effective ratio," and what does it mean? Please quantify this specious term.

[aavery2]

Advertised gear ratio in fishing reels is a simple thing. It is the comparison of the number of teeth on the pinion gear in relation to the number of teeth on the main gear

Main gear has 64 teeth

pinion gear has 10 teeth

64 /10 = 6.4

[aavery2]

Ok, I'll play. How does one measure "effective ratio," and what does it mean? Please quantify this specious term.

I am wondering the same. In my mind what is being measured is closer to efficiency. The amount of input required with a shorter handle is less than that of a longer handle, with the output staying the same. So while you gain the advantage of leverage with a longer handle, you lose a little efficiency.

Seem like a fair trade in my fishing.

[TiNuts]

I.P.T. is not effected by the speed you turn the handle. I.P.T is a measurement of inches of line retrieved per one rotation of the spool. With everything else being equal, it makes not difference if it takes 1 sec or 1 week to complete that rotation, the retrieval rate (I.P.T.) will be exactly the same.

Right. But changing the handle length will change how fast you must move your hand through space for a given spool rpm.

[TiNuts]

Ok, I'll play. How does one measure "effective ratio," and what does it mean? Please quantify this specious term.

It considers the system as a whole (handle, gear set, spool) rather than just the gearset alone.

To quantify:

Effective ratio = old handle or spool diameter/new handle or spool diameter x gear ratio.

No, this doesn't affect ipt, but how fast your hand moves through space for given spool rpm. The OP is referring to it as overall ratio.

[TiNuts]

I am wondering the same. In my mind what is being measured is closer to efficiency. The amount of input required with a shorter handle is less than that of a longer handle with the same output. So while you gain the advantage of leverage with a longer handle, you lose efficiency.

Seem like a fair trade in my fishing.

A longer handle should be more comfortable/easier due to increased lever action, therefore less force required by fisherperson.

[aavery2]

A longer handle should be more comfortable/easier due to increased lever action, therefore less force required by fisherperson.

Yes, that would be the advantage of leverage.

[timsford]

Gear ratio on reels is a measure of spool revolutions to handle revolutions. A 6.4:1 ratio reel has 6.4 spool revolutions to one revolution of the handle. Why is it im the only one understanding what josh smith is saying? His ratio and math are comparing how far your hand travels(based on handle length) to how much line is retrieved. He is not saying it changes the gear ratio by changing handle length, he is saying that by changing to a longer handle, your hand moves farther to retrieve the same amount of line. This is offset though by having more leverage. (a longer lever=more leverage). Ipt is the best measure of reel speed, not gear ratio. And it is changed based on how much line is on the spool. A reel with a larger diameter spool will retrieve more line with the same gear ratio as a smaller diameter spool. Also a reel full of line will retrieve more line per turn than the same reel almost empty of line. Personally i think most people fish way too fast anyways and the only reel i have with a high gear ratio i use for buzzbaits and burning lipless cranks. All that is a matter of opinion though and if you want a super fast reel more power to you. But joshs math is solid, i worked it out myself and what hes saying makes perfect sense to me.

[TiNuts]

Yes, that would be the advantage of leverage.

Yep!

[Josh Smith]

TiNuts and Timsford described this far better than I can.

 

It's like two bicycles with fixed sprockets, both with 6:1 gearing, say.  The pedals are the same distance apart, too.

 

One bicycle has 20" tires.

 

The other bicycle has 26" tires.

 

The 26" tired bike will go faster because its overall ratio is greater.

 

Josh

[TiNuts]

Or you can think of it like planets around the sun. Earth takes 365 days for one revolution. Pluto takes 90,000 days to make that same revolution.

[aavery2]

He is not saying it changes the gear ratio by changing handle length, [/quote

Seems like he said it would change the gear ratio in this, his original post.

1. It produces greater leverage, as was said. In doing this, you reduce the overall gear ratio of the reel, thereby reducing the top speed of the retrieve. Mostly this won't be noticed.