The Most Sensitive Rod Money Can Buy

[.ghoti.]

Due to the differences in sensory perception among individuals, it's probably an exercise in futility to try to measure sensitivity any more than you could measure taste. What would be nice though is for rod and blank makers to embrace Dr Hannemen's "Common Cents" system which measures rod power, action, speed (frequency) with the weight of a US Penny as the unit of measure. A lot of blank makers wont even list physical weight as they don't want their offerings compared to others. 

 This!!!!

 

I've been thinking about this measurement thing off and on for a couple of years. Ever since I had to buy, and learn, LabView for a project. In talking to an engineer friend, who is also a fisherman (he's mechanical, I'm electrical) he thought that by applying a steady state vibration, all I would accomplish would be to establish the resonant frequency for each blank. Interesting, but ultimately of no practical use. I don't think a bass, or any other fish, vibrates. A strike would be an impulse.

 

That has been my dilemma. How to apply a repeatable, variable, controlled impulse. This is a solvable problem, but one I have put on the shelf for a while. I will get back to it sometime soon.

 

Sensitivity, being subjective, would not be what I would be trying to measure. What I would be after would be quantifiable data, for comparative purposes. Objective data, which could possibly be correlated to subjective perceptions across a wide sampling of people. I do believe this could yield some useful results.

 

By the way DVT, the project which got me started with LabView was to measure taste. I signed a rigid nondisclosure agreement to get this project, so I can't discuss details, but I can say the measurements recorded for analysis, were relative rather than absolute.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

 This!!!!

 

I've been thinking about this measurement thing off and on for a couple of years. Ever since I had to buy, and learn, LabView for a project. In talking to an engineer friend, who is also a fisherman (he's mechanical, I'm electrical) he thought that by applying a steady state vibration, all I would accomplish would be to establish the resonant frequency for each blank. Interesting, but ultimately of no practical use. I don't think a bass, or any other fish, vibrates. A strike would be an impulse.

 

That has been my dilemma. How to apply a repeatable, variable, controlled impulse. This is a solvable problem, but one I have put on the shelf for a while. I will get back to it sometime soon.

 

Sensitivity, being subjective, would not be what I would be trying to measure. What I would be after would be quantifiable data, for comparative purposes. Objective data, which could possibly be correlated to subjective perceptions across a wide sampling of people. I do believe this could yield some useful results.

 

By the way DVT, the project which got me started with LabView was to measure taste. I signed a rigid nondisclosure agreement to get this project, so I can't discuss details, but I can say the measurements recorded for analysis, were relative rather than absolute.

"What I would be after would be quantifiable data, for comparative purposes. Objective data, which could possibly be correlated to subjective perceptions across a wide sampling of people. I do believe this could yield some useful results."

 

Exactly. That's what the Common Cents System's intention is as well. Taking subjective terms like ML, M, MH, Fast, Moderate, 5wt, 1/4-3/4 oz etc and replacing them with quantifiable terms that can be measured the same as 7', 4 oz etc. I think you'll find this interesting .ghoti : http://www.common-cents.info/ 

[roadwarrior]

 

That has been my dilemma. How to apply a repeatable, variable, controlled impulse. This is a solvable problem, but one I have put on the shelf for a while. I will get back to it sometime soon.

 

 

How 'bout a violin bow?

 

I thinking a secure rod holder with the rod at 10:00 and 10' of line tied to a 1/2 oz jig. Can the vibration be measured in the line and the 

blank?

[aavery2]

Due to the differences in sensory perception among individuals, it's probably an exercise in futility to try to measure sensitivity any more than you could measure taste. What would be nice though is for rod and blank makers to embrace Dr Hannemen's "Common Cents" system which measures rod power, action, speed (frequency) with the weight of a US Penny as the unit of measure. A lot of blank makers wont even list physical weight as they don't want their offerings compared to others. 

It may be splitting hairs but there is a difference.  If you devised a device that could accurately measure what we commonly call sensitivity, then you could truly say which rod has the greatest.   As it is now it is entirely subjective and opinion based.  

 

This should not be confused with what feels best in your hand, because I am sure we would soon find out that the two are not usually the same.

[aavery2]

 I've been thinking about doing that. I have LabView software, and a couple of DAQ cards with inputs which will accept just about any type of sensor's output signal. Also have a few low range accelerometers. It would not be difficult to develop an application to measure vibration transmission.

 

At this point, I have no time for such a project. And, I don't really know what I would use to apply a realistic input signal to the rod blank. I've put some thought into this this and have conceived, and discarded, several ideas. I'd be interested to hear some of your ideas. Keep in mind, that for this to have any relevance at all, whatever I use to apply a signal to the rod will have to be controlled down to a very fine level. Tapping the end of the blank with a stick is not going to work. LOL

In my mind it would involve a freq. generator so that the input could be controlled in very small graduation and reproduced for comparison.  The problem with this is that it would only tell you which rod was better at certain frequencies.   I wonder if after enough testing, if a range of frequencies would be preferred by a majority of anglers  and based on that you could label one rod better than the other or if a test could be developed to determine which freq. individual anglers could feel the best and a rod could be selected for an individual  based on that information.

 

Now you have done it, I will be thinking about this for the next couple of days.

[.ghoti.]

Kent, that would produce a steady state vibration. The frequency would depend on the size of, and the tension on, the line. This could easily be measured, but, as I said before, I don't think it would give me anything useful, other than resonant frequency.

 

I totally agree with DVT, that the Common Cents System is the way to go. This system yields easily measured numbers which, while being of only some value as absolute numbers, can be of great value for comparative purposes. The system does not ,however, make any determination of sensitivity. Still, a great concept, developed by a creative thinker. But, I don't think we will ever get rod and/or blank manufacturers to measure and publish this data. Hell, a lot of them won't even publish rod or blank weights.

 

When I started thinking about this, what I first had in mind was taking some response measurements from a blank, and then taking the same measurements after the rod was built. Then start putting together a data base, or spreadsheet, showing what effect different materials had on the numbers. ie, does EVA damp the rod more than cork, or foam arbors vs tape vs graphite, different reels seat, split vs full grip, guides, etc,etc,etc.

 

I think many of those comparisons would show slight differences measurable by precise instruments, but imperceptible to the human hand. But, and here's a big but, maybe several of those measured differences added together would produce something we could feel.

 

That's where I was going with this initially. But all these discussions about sensitivity maid me start thinking along those lines as well.

[.ghoti.]

In my mind it would involve a freq. generator so that the input could be controlled in very small graduation and reproduced for comparison.  The problem with this is that it would only tell you which rod was better at certain frequencies.   I wonder if after enough testing, if a range of frequencies would be preferred by a majority of anglers  and based on that you could label one rod better than the other or if a test could be developed to determine which freq. individual anglers could feel the best and a rod could be selected for an individual  based on that information.

 

Now you have done it, I will be thinking about this for the next couple of days.

 

You've hit the nail on the head. A steady state vibration would tell us the resonant freq; where in the spectrum the rod or blank was most efficient at vibration transmission. I don't think that would be of much use. I would also be very disturbing to find that an Ugly stick at 2.5KHz was better than a GLX. Which again, would prove nothing.

 

You sound like we may speak the same language, so here's my best thought so far. I considered using an LVDT. Instead of hooking up an excitation voltage to the coil and reading the output windings for distance measurement, I would configure a DAQ card for ac voltage output and connect it to the output coils. take a little experimentation and probably a buffer amp, but it should stroke the plunger in and out. It would have a limit on upper freq, but I don't think I need to measure high freqs. Impulses are what I'm after. What do you think?

 

At this time, this is all blue sky thinking. I have way too much going on to be able to do anything other than think about it.

[OkobojiEagle]

What is the most sensitive rod money can buy in your opinion? Just curious.

 

 

First of all, it would be a spinning rod...

 

 

oe

[hawgenvy]

Though not an engineer, and though probably very naive on the matter, it occurs to me that an objective measure of sensitivity might favor rigidity, whereas castability requires flexibility. Selection for sensitivity may be selection against castability. Nevertheless, I admire you brave scientists for attempting the feat, and wish you success in coping with the many variables.

[aavery2]

First of all, it would be a spinning rod...

 

 

oe

I'm curious OE why do you feel this way.

[.ghoti.]

Though not an engineer, and though probably very naive on the matter, it occurs to me that an objective measure of sensitivity might favor rigidity, whereas castability requires flexibility. Selection for sensitivity may be selection against castability. Nevertheless, I admire you brave scientists for attempting the feat, and wish you success in coping with the many variables.

 

Had the very same thoughts myself.

 

Is this a case of great minds think alike, or feeble minds never differ?

[.ghoti.]

Tom Kirkman, and some of the guys on the rodbuilding forum have been building a Common Cents System database. It has a considerable amount of information freely available. It would be a fine thing, if all of us who are interested would sign up at rodbuilding.org and contribute to the database.

[OkobojiEagle]

I'm curious OE why do you feel this way.

 

 

ergonomics (and my walleye fishing background)... a spinning rod/reel will balance in your hand with no grip necessary allowing the lightest of touches pinching the blank above the weight of the reel (assuming no foregrip).  When balanced properly, the slightest of weight change from the bait can be both felt and seen.  The lighter the spinning combo the better.

 

 

oe

[warpath58]

Megabass ARMS Challenge ? at least that's what I hear. I will never know as I'm not going to be spending $1200 + for just a rod.

[*Hootie]

Who would ever thought that simply going fishing could be so "DANG COMPLICATED".

 

Hootie

[.ghoti.]

Who would ever thought that simply going fishing could be so "DANG COMPLICATED".

 

Hootie

 

That's the beauty of it. It can be as simple, or complex, as you'd like it to be.

[IAY]

Who would ever thought that simply going fishing could be so "DANG COMPLICATED".

 

Hootie

 

That's the beauty of it. It can be as simple, or complex, as you'd like it to be.

 

You can catch bass perfectly fine with their 20 dollar Walmart combo, but we choose to play the game!

[*Hootie]

Have at it. You play, and I'll fish....lol.

 

Hootie

[*Hootie]

Just kidding guys. This stuff is rather fascinating.

 

Hootie

[BassCats]

As soon as ya'll get all this technical stuff figured out will you tell the rest of us what it is you find out?

[AK-Jax86]

My waterloo Salinity spinning rod is ultra sensitive it's $170 but I am sure you can break the bank and get something a lot more sensitive, I can only go by my experience

[.ghoti.]

As soon as ya'll get all this technical stuff figured out will you tell the rest of us what it is you find out?

 

You bet. Just don't hold your breath. It's gonna be a while before I have any time to devote to this. I'm teaching five courses this semester, working on a plant-wide power monitoring system as a side job, and trying to get a cabin fixed up before it gets too cold. I'm coming up for breath sometime, just not sure when.

 

On a positive note, at the cabin I have my rod building / reel tuning bench almost ready to put in service.

[SirSnookalot]

Braided line will make even a Berkley Cherrywood feel as sensitive as a GLX, yeah, I know, I'm exaggerating a bit but it does increase sensitivity by a lot. I only use braid for flipping super heavy cover and for frogs but the feel of even a heavy power rod is very good, on normal bottom contact rods it really adds to the sensitivity. Don't always go by price.

I probably don't use a rod much better than a cherrywood, I'm using a med 6'6 daiwa spinning rod with braid.  Don't feel I'm losing out on the sensitivity at all.  I don't do this kind of fishing very often but when I do I'm keeping my rod tip low to the water and out of the wind, reduces the "bow" in the line quite a bit.

[Hogsticker]

I wouldn't consider a Major Craft Volkey one piece rod entry level. The rods are built well with quality components and a blank that has a bit more advanced materials such as Mitsubishi rayon and Toray graphite. These are actually a great value if you exclude shipping charges.

[Capt.Bob]

Good Luck Ghoti, if you find that human intuition machine you will surely be a rich man!!! But I don't see how any machine can be as different as a human nervious system is from one individual to another???

 

I have to agree this is very subjective. There are several blanks that would be hard to distinguish more or less sensitivity from one to the other when built with the same components in comparative power and action!! DVT said it pretty well, these top blanks require certain components to withdraw their best sensitivity. Most would not be using many of these components as they would not enhance the rest of the rods fish ability, or personal preference's. I think if anyone chose a SCV, NRX, and maybe NFC, but haven't used an NFC blank as of yet, any of these three I believe you could build your PERFECT,,, most sensitive rod. But most would not be happy with the components needed to create the MOST sensitive!

 

Like I said I think the ultimate in sensitivity can be had with any of these blanks I mentioned, I also would only pick one, and that is because I believe it is not only as sensitive as the other two, but am convinced it is the toughest of the three, it is available in more options than the others, it is lighter in comparable length power and action, than the others, and is backed better with more options if you ever needed the warranty, that is the SCV more sensitive than I need, and pretty sure the Loomis NRX can't even be had with a warranty unless purchased their way!!!

 

Lastly I have to think that once you get past a SCIII Croix or IMX Loomis, quality blank's you are using a more than is necessary to to distinguish what you feel on the end of the line blank!! I have aprox. 23 Avids, Legend Elites & Extremes, and G. Loomis IMX rods, and have owned NRX & GLX, any one of them will let me instantly tell the slightest difference in bottom or bites. I have several custom Legend, Elites, Extremes, and Avids. I am building a custom rod now in a 6' LF Avid blank, I used this blank because I can't see how I would benefit from any more sensitivity than this rod will transmit, and it is a more forgiving action than the SCV or other custom blanks in fast action without going to a slower moderate action. Many times people look for sensitivity and choose to fast a tip to get it, when their are better blanks available for the type of fishing they are wanting it for and end up with an over sensitive rod that doesn't serve it's pupose as well as a rod with plenty of sensitivity and more rounded to the purpose they are using it for.