Leader Problem: Hang-Ups Breaking Off At Leader Knot Instead Of Lure Knot...

[n8cas4]

I love the sensitivity of Braid to Fluoro on my spinning set-ups. However, when I get hung-up and I can't get the lure back the break off is happening at my leader knot. This started happening when I was using the double-uni knot to connect the braid to the FC. Recently, I've switched to the Bob Sands knot for my leader connection. I love this knot, but it still does not solve my problem.

99% of the time I tie a palomar knot to connect my leader to the lure on my spinning set-ups using 8lb Fluoro, (12lb Braid is my main line). The problem with the palomar is that I use up a lot of my leader when I retie. I keep my leader length only 8 feet so the leader knot does not smash against the first rod guide every time I cast. Also, the palomar is a very strong and easy to tie knot (which is actually a problem in my situation). My problem is, I use up my leader very quickly if I switch lures or I break it off entirely if I get snagged and can't get it back. It's becoming too much hassle to deal with on tournament days.

Maybe I need to find a knot where I don't have to use that much excess tag line when I tie it. Therefore my 8 ft leader would stay longer throughout the day. And perhaps I need to find a knot that has a breaking strength LESS than the Bob Sands breaking strength. This way, when I do get hung-up and have to break off, it breaks at the lure knot instead of the leader knot. I want to avoid tying on a leader during tournament days.

This normally doesn't happen using higher lb test on my casting set-ups, just spinning. Anybody else experience this problem or is it just me? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Smallmouth Hunter]

EDIT: meant to say alberto knot. I have my knots mixed up.

[OkobojiEagle]

Alberto knot ... leader to main line

 

orginal clinch knot or uni knot (one loop through line tie) ... terminal knot

 

 

oe

[WRB]

The Bob Sands knot is a difficult knot to tie on the water quickly, lots of ways to go wrong.

What brand FC are you using? The Palomar knot using FC isn't a strong knot, if it was there wouldn't be so many FC knots being offered. If the Palomar knot isn't your weak link, then the braid to FC knot is failing badly.

You could go up to 8 lb FC with 0.008 D increasing the knot strengths by 25%, that may over come knot issues. Difinately practice your braid to FC knots and find a easier knot to tie that is more reliable for you.

You don't want to consider using a weaker knot at the hook end. If you are using lures, use a snap directly on the braid without the FC leader.

Tom

[n8cas4]

The Bob Sands knot is a difficult knot to tie on the water quickly, lots of ways to go wrong.

What brand FC are you using? The Palomar knot using FC isn't a strong knot, if it was there wouldn't be so many FC knots being offered. If the Palomar knot isn't your weak link, then the braid to FC knot is failing badly.

You could go up to 8 lb FC with 0.008 D increasing the knot strengths by 25%, that may over come knot issues. Difinately practice your braid to FC knots and find a easier knot to tie that is more reliable for you.

You don't want to consider using a weaker knot at the hook end. If you are using lures, use a snap directly on the braid without the FC leader.

Tom

 

Thanks, Tom.  I agree with the Bob Sands knot being difficult to tie on the water.  To me, any leader knot is difficult to tie on the water on tournament days.  If I have to, I have to, but I'd like to avoid it.  I'm using Sunline Reaction FC 8 lb as my Fluoro leader.  If I run out of Sunline, I use 8lb Pline 100 % Ultimate FC.  My problem has happened to me on both brands of 8lb FC.  I pretty sure I'm tying the Bob Sands main line to leader knot correctly - it's extremely strong and hard to break by hand.  Plus, I really like the thin profile of the Bob Sands.  I heard it is also good for tying two lines together of different diameter. 

 

The palomar knot is rated at 15.11 breaking strength by Knot Wars (using Fluoro 15lb test).  It's supposedly stronger with lesser diameter as well (like 8lb as opposed to 15lb  + where it is not recommended). 

 

The most common lure that I'm using on this spinning set-up is a shakeyhead, drop-shot, finesse jig or tube.  I really want to avoid using a snap because that would defeat the many purposes of using the FC leader. 

[lmbfisherman]

Thanks, Tom.  I agree with the Bob Sands knot being difficult to tie on the water.  To me, any leader knot is difficult to tie on the water on tournament days.  If I have to, I have to, but I'd like to avoid it.  I'm using Sunline Reaction FC 8 lb as my Fluoro leader.  If I run out of Sunline, I use 8lb Pline 100 % Ultimate FC.  My problem has happened to me on both brands of 8lb FC.  I pretty sure I'm tying the Bob Sands main line to leader knot correctly - it's extremely strong and hard to break by hand.  Plus, I really like the thin profile of the Bob Sands.  I heard it is also good for tying two lines together of different diameter. 

 

The palomar knot is rated at 15.11 breaking strength by Knot Wars (using Fluoro 15lb test).  It's supposedly stronger with lesser diameter as well (like 8lb as opposed to 15lb  + where it is not recommended). 

 

The most common lure that I'm using on this spinning set-up is a shakeyhead, drop-shot, finesse jig or tube.  I really want to avoid using a snap because that would defeat the many purposes of using the FC leader. 

I've only had this problem when I used Trilene Vanish (lost fish at the leader knot double uni).  I've changed to Seaguar Red Label and I don't have that issue anymore.  So it's possible the line you're using could be the issue with the type of knot you are using. 

[hatrix]

You don't have to eat up a bunch of your leader on each knot. Pull your palomar from the main line and not the tag end. Just when you pass your bait through the loop don't tighten down the loop around the eye. Wet your line and make sure your loop is not twisted and you should be able to pull the slack out from your main line with no burn or any thing if you did it right. I would say i loose maybe about a inch of line tops with each palomar. 

[SirSnookalot]

Either the knot is tied wrong, your drag is too tight or you are setting the hook too hard for the set up you are using. Could be some lousy line, something I have never encountered but it's possible.  I use an albright, loopknot, clinch and improved clinch, never concerned about any part of that chain breaking.  

[Tywithay]

Also, make sure that the fluoro is very wet when you tie the knot. If fluoro rubs against itself while clinching the knot, it burns a weak spot in the line.

[n8cas4]

Either the knot is tied wrong, your drag is too tight or you are setting the hook too hard for the set up you are using. Could be some lousy line, something I have never encountered but it's possible.  I use an albright, loopknot, clinch and improved clinch, never concerned about any part of that chain breaking.  

 

When I am hung up on the bottom and have to break off.  I'm not talking about when I have a fish on.

[A-Jay]

I love the sensitivity of Braid to Fluoro on my spinning set-ups.  However, when I get hung-up and I can't get the lure back the break off is happening at my leader knot.  This started happening when I was using the double-uni knot to connect the braid to the FC.  Recently, I've switched to the Bob Sands knot for my leader connection.  I love this knot, but it still does not solve my problem. 

 

99% of the time I tie a palomar knot to connect my leader to the lure on my spinning set-ups using 8lb Fluoro, (12lb Braid is my main line). The problem with the palomar is that I use up a lot of my leader when I retie.  I keep my leader length only 8 feet so the leader knot does not smash against the first rod guide every time I cast.  Also, the palomar is a very strong and easy to tie knot (which is actually a problem in my situation).  My problem is, I use up my leader very quickly if I switch lures or I break it off entirely if I get snagged and can't get it back.  It's becoming too much hassle to deal with on tournament days.

 

Maybe I need to find a knot where I don't have to use that much excess tag line when I tie it.  Therefore my 8 ft leader would stay longer throughout the day.  And perhaps I need to find a knot that has a breaking strength LESS than the Bob Sands breaking strength.  This way, when I do get hung-up and have to break off, it breaks at the lure knot instead of the leader knot.  I want to avoid tying on a leader during tournament days.  

 

This normally doesn't happen using higher lb test on my casting set-ups, just spinning.  Anybody else experience this problem or is it just me?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

 

 

You are describing the symptoms and not the problem. 

Your first problem is you're getting snagged in the first place.   Perhaps you could re-evaluate your bait / technique selection and choose one that is more suited for the conditions.  Using  a light line leader and spinning gear and a bait that gets snagged in an area that has them, might not be a formula for success - especially during a tournament.  

  

 By modifying your technique / presentation to match the environment the bass are in, you may find more success. 

 

Without more information regarding your angling situation, it's difficult to offer you an insightful solution.

 

I will say a different knot will make little to no difference.

 

A-Jay

[n8cas4]

Let me be more clear.  Everybody gets hung up on the bottom (snagged, whatever).  I should not have used the term break-off (referring to losing a fish due to line/knot/terminal failures).  That's my fault.

 

I want to avoid snapping my line at the leader knot when I do get snagged on the bottom and can't get the lure back.  I wish to snap my line at the terminal/lure knot instead of the leader knot.  I don't care if you call it a symptom, problem, situation or whatever.  I'm asking for advice for treating these symptoms, solving these problems, addressing the situation, or whatever. 

[Steveo-1969]

I have the same problem that the OP described.  I use 10# braid and 8# FC leader on a spinning rod.  Fishing a very rocky snaggy river bottom and when I get hung up and have to break off, the FC breaks just below the line/leader knot about half the time instead of at the lure.  And I have to tie a new leader on.  I'm using a uni-to-uni knot.  I'm usually fishing 6 feet of water or less and I've been told "if I'm not snagging I'm not bragging"!  I don't think modifying my presentation to NOT get snagged is the answer.  I use a Trilene knot at the lure end.  I've just decided that breaking off the whole leader is part of the deal... (sigh)

[michang5]

Braid with fluoro leader on spinning gear is most of what I throw. I've used 20# braid to 10# fluoro. I currently throw 15/10 and 10/6 on my two setups. I also run long leaders of 12-20'.

I always use the Alberto knot to join the two lines. Learn from the man himself:

I always use the Palomar knot at lure/hook.

I very seldom break the line due to fish or hookset. If I'm snapping line, it is because I'm hung due to a bad cast.

And I am always surprised -- because it happens so infrequently -- if I break off at the leader knot.

Make sure you're using quality line. My braid is PowerPro Super 8 Slick. My fluoro is either Seaguar Red Label or Invizx. Long ago I bought a box of Vicious fluoro at Walmart that kept snapping on hooksets. I got rid of it in favor of the Seaguar and have not looked back.

Hope this helps.

[Janderson45]

I fish braid to fluorocarbon leader quite often, as a few others have mentioned here the alberto knot is a great braid to FC leader knot.  Easy to tie once you get the hang of it, and superior to the Albright knot because you wrap both up and down the loop.  If you can afford a little extra time in tying this knot, it seems to pay off.. unless I'm trying to tie it quickly on the water or in low light conditions I generally try to make the knot as "pretty" as I can, by wrapping the loops consistently overlapping each other up and down the line....

 

Once the knot is tied and tied correctly I've actually never had it break on me, I always break the FC leader either at the knot connecting it to the terminal tackle (I use either a palomar or san diego jam knot for this) or at some micro-abrasion or some kink along the way in the leader. 

 

Another issue you described is that it's time consuming and frustrating to have to keep retying leaders.. I feel this way as well, and to combat this what I personally do is this:  When I'm tying the leader on to my braided mainline, I don't cut the FC leader off of the spool, instead I tie the alberto knot, trim tag ends, and reel up a full rod lengths worth of leader if not a little bit more.  So now you've got at minimum at 6' leader.  Most of the conditions I fish don't call for anything near a 6' FC leader, the extra length is simply there for if I break off or have to retie lures/terminal tackle I've now got a whole bunch of extra line to play with than if I had cut off a leader of predetermined length such as 2' of 3'.  Because the alberto knot is so neat and small, I have no problem casting this knot through my rod guides.  

 

Other good tips are too of course make sure that you're FC is good and wet before cinching any knots down... and of course cinch any knot into fluoro with a lot of extra care.  Another good tip I picked up along the way for tying the alberto knot is to take your finger nails and scratch/rub off the finish on the braided line for about 10" or so.  You can usually take off a bit of the "slick" finish that coats common braided lines like power pro by simply running your finger nails over it.  This makes it a bit less slippery and allows knots to hold a bit better.  

 

Some people even use a little bit of super glue or rubber cement on the alberto knot to make it a tad stronger as well as make it "harder" so it passes even better through small guides.  I haven't found this necessary yet however, and don't personally do it.

[Steveo-1969]

Thanks michang5.  The braid I'm using is 10# Sufix 832.  I've tried 3 different fluoros all 8# for leaders:  Seaguar Invizx, Red Label and now Abrazx.  When I'm snagged on the bottom and have to break off I pull the rod straight back until the line breaks and half the time it breaks just below the uni-to-uni knot on all three fluoros.  My initial leader length is about 3', I wonder if I need to make it longer?  Shorter?

[SirSnookalot]

If you are snagging jigs that's a good thing, means you are putting in in the right place, losing jigs is just part of the game.  First thing I would do with any lure is tighten the drag and snap the bow, good chance you just might get the lure back.  I'd switch to the alberto, probably as good a knot as there is.  If all that fails, switch to a mono leader.

[Steveo-1969]

Thanks Sir Snook.  I am fishing jigs and get lots of them back by snapping the line, but once in a while it doesn't work.  I don't mind losing the jig, but like the OP I hoped I could get my leader back every time when I broke it off.  I'll have to check out the Alberto, don't know if I want to give up my Abrazx though... :-)

[michang5]

Here is a tip on the Alberto that I figured out when I first started tying it...

1. Get a wooden clothespin (the kind with metal spring in the middle).
2. Take the fluoro line and make your loop.
3. Pin the loop closed 4-6" below the bend. The clothespin acts like a third set of fingers holding the line together. It also has a bit of weight that can keep the line slightly taut.*
4. Use your fingers to thread the braid through, make the twists, and hold the line as you make the twists back up.

 

*If I'm sitting down in a kayak or on my living room floor, I'll hold the pinned clothespin in the bend of my knee. It stabilizes the whole thing and I can tie the whole knot in seconds.

 

Caveat: Yes, I know I'm going to be in a world of hurt if I ever lose the clothespin while fishing. I've had to use my hands-only once or twice. I wasn't as fast, but I could still tie the Alberto. But 99% of the time I have the clothespin.

[Smallmouth Hunter]

Michang that is a great tip! I will have to try that. I always have had issues with the leader twisting when trying to thread the braid and twist it around to make the wraps of the knot.

[n8cas4]

Wow. Awesome replies while I was away from the forum. Thanks michang5.

I'm super meticulous when it comes to tying my knots - always wetting with saliva as well. I'll try the new knots and hope to not lose at the leader as much. I like using 12lb Sunline sx1 braid and 8lb Sunline sniper FC. I don't think it's a poor line issue - and I'm going to have to figure this out through trial and error. I wanted to check in here hoping that I wasn't the only one, so I'm glad to hear at least one other with this issue. Also, I was hoping to get a little advice to give me a head start in figuring out what to do. The difference in sensitivity compared to straight FC is worth the extra effort in fixing this.

[n8cas4]

Thanks janderson

[michang5]

Wow. Awesome replies while I was away from the forum. Thanks michang5.

I'm super meticulous when it comes to tying my knots - always wetting with saliva as well. I'll try the new knots and hope to not lose at the leader as much. I like using 12lb Sunline sx1 braid and 8lb Sunline sniper FC. I don't think it's a poor line issue - and I'm going to have to figure this out through trial and error. I wanted to check in here hoping that I wasn't the only one, so I'm glad to hear at least one other with this issue. Also, I was hoping to get a little advice to give me a head start in figuring out what to do. The difference in sensitivity compared to straight FC is worth the extra effort in fixing this.

I don't have experience with Sunline, but my buddy just picked up some 10# Sniper last Saturday morning and attached it to his Kanzen braid. That afternoon I saw him absolutely horse a 6.5# bass out and over 12-15' of slop and vegetation and deposit it at his feet.

I was super impressed. I'd be surprised if the Sniper was the weak link in your setup.

[SirSnookalot]

Thanks Sir Snook.  I am fishing jigs and get lots of them back by snapping the line, but once in a while it doesn't work.  I don't mind losing the jig, but like the OP I hoped I could get my leader back every time when I broke it off.  I'll have to check out the Alberto, don't know if I want to give up my Abrazx though... :-)

Believe me I don't get all mine back either, but it is a good method.  I have to thank my old friend Muddy, he has saved me quite a few lures over the years.  

I don't know exactly what the problem is without actually seeing it, I do know I don't have that problem and a lot of other people don't either.  I use the most simplistic knots, I'm anything but anal over line brands, yet I catch my fair of fish without my lines, leaders or knots breaking covering a wide range of environments and sizes of fish.

I'd say, get rid of the f/c. 

[n8cas4]

Didn't break off at the leader once using the Alberto knot. Thanks for the helpful advice. Now for a new knot besides the Palomar