Will A Bass Stop Feeding Altogether?

[Catt]

You got me there! I am SURE you are right, but here is a very specific story that I was personally

involved with. I was at Pickwick last year with the local BPS Fishing Department Manager, another

BPS assistant and a well known local. None of these guys had EVER caught a DD, but this particular

weekend all three got one, weighed and pictured, on the A Rig! Pretty impressive I think.

Still, I am sure some of the other reports are "estimated weights" and we all know what that

means.

Oh impressive for sure!

But consider this, would it not be possible for a 7-9 lb bass to have been caught at the start of the 3 year period & not much attention give to it. But that same 7-9 lbs bass is caught during year 3 but now it's a 10 lb plus & gets plenty of attention.

Point is we do not know if that DD was caught before or not. There is plenty to consider when we say a portion of the population has never struck a lure in its life time.

[roadwarrior]

Well, I understand your point, but I think you missed mine.

I don't believe in multiple coincidence. The fact that three

guys all catch DDs on one weekend trip together on Pickwick

Reservior has a statistical probability approaching zero. This

combined with other reports of DDs on The Rig suggest a 

completely different scenario.

[tatertester]

Scheeeeeeese!

[WRB]

Not so much a fear of lures, but like Avery said a conditioned response to avoid a certain type of bait/forage until there isn't enough food that they haven't been conditioned to ignore. I know it is probably not true, just something I was thinking about based on a number of theories.

Stop feeding from being conditioned to being hooked, the answer is NO.

Stop feeding because the prey source the bass has feed on it's entire adult life disappears, the answer is yes.

The majority of giant bass in lake Casitas stopped feeding when trout plants stopped abruptly. I thought the big bass would switch to the threadfin shad population instead of starving, I was wrong, the population crashed within 2 years. Electro shocking brought up dozens of emancipated 26"-28" bass that should have weight over 15 lbs that were less than 4 lbs and starving in a lake with healthy bass in the 12"-20" size range.

Casitas was a world class trophy bass lake and after 6 years of no trout plants, the bass are recovering and has a good population of 7 to 10 lb bass today.

Very few bass are caught on trout swimbaits today, the new generation of bass don't recognize what a trout swimbait is!

We may think we know bass behavior, there is a lot to learn.

Tom

[shimmy]

The survival instinct would prevent any healthy animal from fasting until death.

The only animal that stops eating is one that's morbidly ill, to the point of no return.

 

Roger

 

Not true, remembering old Harlow's experiment with monkeys where they would rather seek comfort and starve to death then live in an environment with food and no comfort. So yes, animals do starve themselves intentionally, especially when stressed. But, the question is, do fish? Until a study shows so, i don't know the answer. But I presume they will often not eat when stressed.

[WRB]

Not true, remembering old Harlow's experiment with monkeys where they would rather seek comfort and starve to death then live in an environment with food and no comfort. So yes, animals do starve themselves intentionally, especially when stressed. But, the question is, do fish? Until a study shows so, i don't know the answer. But I presume they will often not eat when stressed.

Making contradictory statements without knowing the facts creates animosity.

I have fished lake Casitas since 1958 and caught giant bass over 15 lbs* every year since 1979 until 2009., None since. I also made the argument that the giant bass population would adjust to feeding on what prey was available when the trout plants stopped. Casitas has a good population of red ear sunfish, bluegill, crappie, threadfin shad, crawdads and young of the year catfish and carp...plenty of food choices. The big bass that grew up eating planted trout didn't adjust, they starved. Not one bass over 12 lbs was caught between 2009 to date 2014. Castias averages over 50 bass exceeding 13 lbs for 30 years...zero since the trout plants abruptly stopped. I witnessed the starving bass and hard to except it could happen, not logical, but factual..

I know the new generation of bass are doing well, 18+ lb bass may not occur, but 15+ lbs could, time will tell.

Tom

* 18.6 lbs my top bass at Casitas.

[fishinthedacks]

Honestly it's possible. Humans do it. It could be mental, it could be conditioned. A lot of people like myself with stomach problems eat very little. I love food but everytime I eat I get very uncomfortable and sick. Happened at a young age. I found certain things will help my appetite but to be honest I survive on about 1/10th of the food any normal person should. But I have become conditioned to know if I eat it's going to upset my stomach so I chew thoroughly and eat very little. To say fish and other animals don't feel anxiety and refuse food would be incorrect. Anxiety is something humans have become conditioned to that most people don't feel it, but it is our most primal instinct. Thats why most fish flee when they see you. I'm not going to argue animals especially fish anxiety lol but it is a possibility. Usually they stop feeding due to illness, however I've care for high end fish my entire life (I have a discus tank with about 2000.00 in discus fish) I've had 300.00 fish who stopped feeding due to bullying during feeding time. They knew when the tank opened up if they went for food a dominant fish would attack them so they would go to the bottom and begin to become bottom feeders. If they were caught the would be attacked and eventually they would stop eating due to stress. So I would seperate them and sometimes it would take weeks to get them eating again sometimes they would never eat and die with no other illness present.

 

Anyone with aggressive tanks can attest to this.

[fishinthedacks]

All fish must eat to survive!

 

Just sayin.

 

Jeff

 

 

As do all animals, period. Unfortunately all animals can be stressed to the point of not eating and dying. From fish to people. (The reason I know this I used to captive breed reptiles on a large scale as well as fish. Wild caughts were very hard to acclimate early on even with perfect conditions and big chunky snakes and lizards with no health problems as proven by my vet and eventually myself since I got to the point where I could do/diagnose anything a vet could. They would just go months without eating and eventually die. Having necropsies done after death they weren't diagnoses with anything. Parasites, cancers etc. They died from malnourishment. And I tried offering mice,rats,birds,lizards,guinea pigs etc for the very hard to please feeders. Usually worked but sometimes they just said screw it and starved to death.)

 

 Certainly if a bass was caught multiple times in short period of time I think they could be stressed to the point of starving to death. Perfect example is the Bass Pro Shop catch and release ponds. They stopped biting ANYTHING after about an hour and the staff was just snagging the fish with the hooks. They weren't biting and they hadn't even been feed. Sure that's an extreme scenario but they tried tons of dif bait to get them biting and eventually a couple (probably ones who weren't harassed too much started biting on a different bait) but as a whole their were 100s of fish not biting with empty stomachs.

 

Again this is an extreme but certainly proves this theory to an extent. I would be interested to see that catch and release pond utilized under proper conditions for a month and no "snagging the fish" and see how many fish died under proper water temps, hiding spots, water conditions (pH etc). I'm sure a small fishery could do a controlled experiment with no problem and give us a real answer. HOWEVER! This would never happen. Because animal rights groups would crack down on fishing and regulate it worse than than it is now. So for us anglers I think it's better to forget about this subject lol.

[Brian Needham]

thank goodness wild bass aren't being held captive!

[shimmy]

Making contradictory statements without knowing the facts creates animosity.

I have fished lake Casitas since 1958 and caught giant bass over 15 lbs* every year since 1979 until 2009., None since. I also made the argument that the giant bass population would adjust to feeding on what prey was available when the trout plants stopped. Casitas has a good population of red ear sunfish, bluegill, crappie, threadfin shad, crawdads and young of the year catfish and carp...plenty of food choices. The big bass that grew up eating planted trout didn't adjust, they starved. Not one bass over 12 lbs was caught between 2009 to date 2014. Castias averages over 50 bass exceeding 13 lbs for 30 years...zero since the trout plants abruptly stopped. I witnessed the starving bass and hard to except it could happen, not logical, but factual..

I know the new generation of bass are doing well, 18+ lb bass may not occur, but 15+ lbs could, time will tell.

Tom

* 18.6 lbs my top bass at Casitas.

 

I guess i'm confused, are you saying i am making a contradictory statement??? Not sure what you are referring to. Nevertheless, I do find the rest of your post very interesting though.

[WRB]

I guess i'm confused, are you saying i am making a contradictory statement??? Not sure what you are referring to. Nevertheless, I do find the rest of your post very interesting though.

No, that was Rolo's quote you quoted. I think we are on the same page now.

The Casitas bass may have become conditioned to eating trout and ignoring everything else, when the trout suddenly disappeared the bass never learned to hunt for more difficult prey to eat until they were too weak to catch prey. Very strange set of circumstances. The giant giant bass in Castaic lagoon had the same problem without trout plants and most of those bass made the adjustment. The lagoon is smaller and water levels more stable, cooler and has a holdover trout population, the bass population didn't crash as fast as the Casitas giant bass.

Tom

[SirSnookalot]

Short answer is Yes.  Whether it's a bass or another species I have put live bait literally in their mouth, just to see them swim away.

[RoLo]

Short answer is Yes.  Whether it's a bass or another species I have put live bait literally in their mouth, just to see them swim away.

 

After you've just finished wolfing down a 12-oz New York Strip, you might not be thrilled by the sight of another steak dinner.

Every angler has witnessed fasting bass that refuse to eat, but this has little or nothing to do with starvation.

Provided suitable food is available, no healthy fish is going to die of starvation unless of course it's inflicted with a terminal illness,

be it physical or physiological.

 

Roger.

[geo g]

Sometimes the PH in the water gets screwed up, they will stop doing anything!  Especially eating!  This sometimes happens after a heavy, drenching, rain storm.  I hate that!   

[Brian Needham]

I got a friend that tells me all the time:

"Needham, they got to eat, your job is the find the hungry ones and feed them"

[WRB]

After you've just finished wolfing down a 12-oz New York Strip, you might not be thrilled by the sight of another steak dinner.

Every angler has witnessed fasting bass that refuse to eat, but this has little or nothing to do with starvation.

Provided suitable food is available, no healthy fish is going to die of starvation unless of course it's inflicted with a terminal illness,

be it physical or physiological.

 

Roger.

Roger, I respect what your opinion on this and I had the exact same position until the lake Castias giant bass population starved in otherwise healthy ecosystem. The local guides were complaining, the trophy bass anglers were complaining and discussions with the DFG biologist finally including electro shocking for confirmation. I will try to locate some photos taken of these bass. There isn't a trophy bass population at Castias today, although it may recover in time.

We are not talking about a few bass, close to 50 bass estimate to be between 15 to 18 lbs before the trout plants stopped.

Tom

[Brian Needham]

I think WRB is correct,as I have no reason to doubt it. but it is an extreme set of events.

on average, with the food chain intact..... will a bass starve itself, no.

do we agree on that?

[Catt]

From what I've read by biologist & other big bass anglers I've talked to, Castias problem was not that the bass wouldn't eat other prey, they were conditioned by the trout not to hunt.

[WRB]

From what I've read by biologist & other big bass anglers I've talked to, Castias problem was not that the bass wouldn't eat other prey, they were conditioned by the trout not to hunt.

I agree with this. However they did hunt trout all over the lake, not just feed on easy meals in the marina. The bass that lived in the closed area by the dam, 2 miles away from where trout were planted, had to chase down trout that are not freshly planted. The giant bass were conditioned to feed on trout, just couldn't make the adjustment to good shad population.

Keep in mind the trout plants only occur 5 months of the year, so the smaller size trout would be conditioned holdovers. Casitas still has a population of holdover trout between 4 to 10 lbs., too big for bass prey.

Another factor was the quagga mussel fear the Ventura county board had, the annual crayfish stocking to augment the lakes population also stopped. Perfect storm of bad decisions. When you look back it all makes sense, at the time it was baffling.

Tom

[Catt]

You could call it hunting if you want

[RoLo]

Roger, I respect what your opinion on this and I had the exact same position until the lake Castias giant bass population starved in otherwise healthy ecosystem. The local guides were complaining, the trophy bass anglers were complaining and discussions with the DFG biologist finally including electro shocking for confirmation. I will try to locate some photos taken of these bass. There isn't a trophy bass population at Castias today, although it may recover in time.

We are not talking about a few bass, close to 50 bass estimate to be between 15 to 18 lbs before the trout plants stopped.

Tom

 

Tom, would you agree that the disappearance of trout concomitantly translated to a meaningful reduction in the forage base?

In any ecosystem, the population of predators at the top of the food chain moves lockstep with the forage base at the bottom of the chain.

 

As an Example:

During the last several years, ospreys have been enjoying a population explosion in Florida.

As you know, ospreys are strictly piscivorous, and today you can find one or more breeding pairs at every pothole.

On one hand, I'm happy to see them flourishing so well, but on the other hand I'm concerned about their future.

Even before it happens, I already know that when Florida undergoes the next severe drought,

the osprey population will experience a severe die-back, it's the law of 'natural balance'.

 

Roger

[Catt]

Castias is one example if why I'm so adamant about scientific research with too much human input...the results aint natural!

[WRB]

The bass had to compete with cormorants, gulls, herons and osprey for the trout. When the trout plants stopped the cormorants were gone the next year, better hunting grounds elsewhere.

I don't believe the trout made up a big biomass of the food about 150 lbs, 200 to 250 small trout each week for about 20 weeks.

Castias has a massive threadfin shad population, Threadfin are small and not much protein for the effort when the big bass had learned to feed on trout.

Nothing has changed at the lake, the small planted trout are gone, the bass today are doing good, fast and healthy feeding mostly on Threadfin. .

Like Catt is saying trout were easy prey, the big bass became lazy and forgot to learn to hunt anything else.

I thought there was no way these bass wouldn't adjust and start eating shad, they didn't!

Tom

[hoosierbass07]

I watched an eppisode of Nova and they did a program on how smart birds are. Wow! Crows and ravens are very smart, even smarter that dogs. They made me think of bass. My new thinking - bass are a little smarter than a Venus flytrap, but not much.

[RoLo]

The bass had to compete with cormorants, gulls, herons and osprey for the trout. When the trout plants stopped the cormorants were gone the next year, better hunting grounds elsewhere.

I don't believe the trout made up a big biomass of the food about 150 lbs, 200 to 250 small trout each week for about 20 weeks.

Castias has a massive threadfin shad population, Threadfin are small and not much protein for the effort when the big bass had learned to feed on trout.

Nothing has changed at the lake, the small planted trout are gone, the bass today are doing good, fast and healthy feeding mostly on Threadfin. .

Like Catt is saying trout were easy prey, the big bass became lazy and forgot to learn to hunt anything else.

I thought there was no way these bass wouldn't adjust and start eating shad, they didn't!

Tom

 

Most animals are highly adaptable, and those that are less flexible often pay a high price..

Two examples of inflexible animals are the ivory-billed woodpecker which is most likely extinct, and the spotted owl

which is facing extinction. The survival of these two species is linked to primary forests (primeval stands), which have

mostly been replaced by secondary forests. In stark contrast, the pileated woodpecker and barred owl have acclimated well

to secondary forests and their numbers and range continue to burgeon.

 

If there's 'one' thing we all learned about bass is that they're a highly flexible species with an uncanny ability to acclimatize. 

As dictated by conditions, bass quickly adapt to inshore habitats, offshore habitats, lowland reservoirs & canyon impoundments. 

They will relate to weeds, wood, rocks and manmade structures, and they're able to cut a living in perennially muddy waters

with a secchi depth measured in inches (no one can explain how they pull it off).

 

I'm convinced that the reduced biomass of trophy bass in Castaic and Casitas is in direct proportion to the reduction

in the forage base, and has nothing to do with an inability to adjust. Never forget, these same bass already made the adjustment

from their natural shallow-water niche to an offshore habitat in order to dine on pelagic forage. For these same bass to switch back 

to their inborn shallow-water environment would as easy as falling off a log, but the real problem lies in the fact 

that the punch bowl was taken away (i.e. trout). 

 

Roger