Open Carry

[HeavyDluxe]

However, if my Dad flew fighter jets, though I may know a lot about it, if you put me in the pilot seat, I'd be lost.

 

Great point, and well said.

[Brian Needham]

speedbead...I can only imagine what you see at the counter day in day out.. you hit it on the head......I hate to snip your post but here is what I have gather in my dealings

 

I ask people why do you carry and here are their answers

 

OC: because I can

CC: for personal protection

 

very different answers, and from my view (and MANY will disagree) to para phrase a golf saying:

 One carries for show and the other carries to keep his doe.

[Brian Needham]

great discussion..... I agree in princple with 99% of what has been said here. Sadly, just like many laws, it is the vocabulary is where it gets sticky(SOMETIMES)

I really try not to draw hard lines, I used to but it never worked out........ I am glad even though we have different angles or differnet explanations of what we believe, that we all see the other guys point and mostly agree. to talk about what we agree on is sometimes way more important than the small differences.

[A-Jay]

 I'm just glad it's not my day to day job & life trying to determine what the heck is what out there.

 

It's a wild & crazy world we live in no matter where that may be.

 

A-Jay

[aavery2]

heavy deluxe........that is a well rounded take. and I agree.

 

with the CC without a permit....... here is where I differ, and I can admit that it is a sole product of where I live, which is pretty average America (sadly)

 

guy gets stopped.  drugs are found and a gun. the drug charge is more often than not dropped or pleaded out, but the gun charge always sticks.

but if you are allowed to CC without permit, the criminal at this point walks off all charges. which is bad, IMO.

 

don't get me wrong I am a gun supporter, however I don't think any side has this 100% right 100% of the time.

 

take for instance the "I don't show ID crowd" ... (list is devils advocate)

 

do you support voter ID? then show your ID to LEO

do you show ID for beer? then show it  to LEO

do you show ID at the bank? then show it to LEO

would you or do you have a problem with a couple of muslim guys driving a Uhaul being asked for ID? then you need to show yours to LEO

Have an issue with Trayvon being asked? then show yours to LEO

Have a cold, need meds? better whip out that ID

Need to renew your car tags? get that ID ready

 

I could go on and on, but I think yall see my point...... we show ID for numerous things so its no big deal right?

but I guess if you are in a "sovereign citizen" camp, I digress.  

 

heavy delux I don't want you to think I am directing this at you cause I am not..... I agree with your post, then I got off on a tangent LOL

All good points, but here is the difference,  the tag office, the voter registration official and the person who needs to see to sale you cold meds, does not then go and run a background check on you  to see if you have any priors or outstanding warrants.  Now good or bad, that is against your constitutional rights because that information was gained through unlawful search and seisure.  Why should I ever be detained and  have to prove myself innocent if I am obeying all laws and you have no reason to suspect me any crime.

[Brian Needham]

All good points, but here is the difference,  the tag office, the voter registration official and the person who needs to see to sale you cold meds, does not then go and run a background check on you  to see if you have any priors or outstanding warrants.  Now good or bad, that is against your constitutional rights because that information was gained through unlawful search and seisure.  Why should I ever be detained and  have to prove myself innocent if I am obeying all laws and you have no reason to suspect me any crime.

 

ok here is some more devils adovcate.........

1. why show your ID to the beer clerk you are clearly over 21 yet they card you anyway

2. tag office wants to make sure you are who you say you are to ensure you are not ID thieving thus breaking the law.

4. show your ID at vote polls to ensure you have the right to vote and to make sure you are not breaking the law

5. buying cold meds they log your name and ID

 

all the above are to protect and preserve YOUR rights from the shady law breakers.

 

and 5, which will prove my point

LEO ask for your ID to ensure you dont have priors/warrents... because chances are if you do have those you have lost your 2nd admendment right, due to your priors/warrents.

 

that arugement can not be broken.

 

or do you want felons and folks with warrents carrying guns?

 

the first 4 accounts you willingly hand your ID over...... yet you wont to help LEO do his job?

none of the 5 listed here are anywhere near an infringement on the 4th admendment, IMHO yet you do 4 of them but not the 5th?

 

I understand your argument, but it is peice mealing/ picking and choosing at best because the 4 you do all have state or federal statues behind them, thus coming from goverment..... so it puzzles me why pick and choose.

 

even still, we are in the same boat because I am on watch list too, LOL, so we are still on the same side.

[SPEEDBEAD.]

I don't think anyone here is referring to what amounts to a "stop and frisk" situation.

 

What situations have you guys ever been in where you "weren't doing anything" but yet got asked for ID from a LEO? I've had to give ID to law enforcement on a couple occasions, limited to traffic stops (yeah, I speed LOL) and the one car accident I've been involved in. I just don't involve myself in stuff where this is an issue. Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Both entirely possible.

[Brian Needham]

but has anyone been through a "stop and frisk" that wasn't a suspect anyway though? that's my question......

and I think that is your point Speed...if you are in a situation to be there, you might not should have been there. DO I read you right?

 

stop and frisk are a totally different level than a guy aimlessly walking down a sidewalk while OC.

 

I think of it this way...... if a guy OC, LEO ask for ID cause someone called, fine......next time the LEO drives past and waves at you. I see it as 30secs at best for a lifetime of LEO being on your side. Some people act like its taking a computer chip in your forehead or something.

 

also, LEO are on our side on this, so why make enemies when you can make a friend and supporter?

 just saying and asking for understanding.

[flyfisher]

but has anyone been through a "stop and frisk" that wasn't a suspect anyway though? that's my question......

and I think that is your point Speed...if you are in a situation to be there, you might not should have been there. DO I read you right?

 

stop and frisk are a totally different level than a guy aimlessly walking down a sidewalk while OC.

 

I think of it this way...... if a guy OC, LEO ask for ID cause someone called, fine......next time the LEO drives past and waves at you. I see it as 30secs at best for a lifetime of LEO being on your side. Some people act like its taking a computer chip in your forehead or something.

 

also, LEO are on our side on this, so why make enemies when you can make a friend and supporter?

 just saying and asking for understanding.

I agree with you on this one completely.  I have a buddy who is ultra conservative and his argument in these cases is where does it stop.  If they go in there now and do this then more and more will be added in the future.  I guess i don't see the conspiracy side as much as most and see it more as a natural evolution of how things should change to keep a safe society.  Gone are the days of in the street duels where the winner was alive and the loser, well we all knew what happened there.

 

I have no problem showing my ID to any LEO pretty much at any time they ask for it. I have nothing to hide and if by me showing ID it eases their mind then who am i to stop that.   It is their job to ensure the safety of everyone, not just the non OC or CCW and keep the peace.  I have a serious problem with anyone who is out there to try and show up the man for the sake of showing up the man....never ends well and usually ends up worse for all parties involved.

[SPEEDBEAD.]

That was my point Brian. I was typing as a response to the fella above you and you must have hit "send" before me.

[Brian Needham]

I agree with you on this one completely.  I have a buddy who is ultra conservative and his argument in these cases is where does it stop.  If they go in there now and do this then more and more will be added in the future.  I guess i don't see the conspiracy side as much as most and see it more as a natural evolution of how things should change to keep a safe society.  Gone are the days of in the street duels where the winner was alive and the loser, well we all knew what happened there.

 

I have no problem showing my ID to any LEO pretty much at any time they ask for it. I have nothing to hide and if by me showing ID it eases their mind then who am i to stop that.   It is their job to ensure the safety of everyone, not just the non OC or CCW and keep the peace.  I have a serious problem with anyone who is out there to try and show up the man for the sake of showing up the man....never ends well and usually ends up worse for all parties involved.

 

I think that is a fair and balanced assesment. thanks for sharing!

I, like your buddy, am ultra conservative, and been called an extrremist too many times. though I do understand the "slippery slope" "where does it stop" segment..... I dont see LEOs as against us, maybe I am wrong..... but the fight is with the gubament, not the men and women that have a badge and try to help us. Badge or not , they are just like us and want to see good things for good people!

[aavery2]

ok here is some more devils adovcate.........

1. why show your ID to the beer clerk you are clearly over 21 yet they card you anyway

2. tag office wants to make sure you are who you say you are to ensure you are not ID thieving thus breaking the law.

4. show your ID at vote polls to ensure you have the right to vote and to make sure you are not breaking the law

5. buying cold meds they log your name and ID

 

all the above are to protect and preserve YOUR rights from the shady law breakers.

 

and 5, which will prove my point

LEO ask for your ID to ensure you dont have priors/warrents... because chances are if you do have those you have lost your 2nd admendment right, due to your priors/warrents.

 

that arugement can not be broken.

 

or do you want felons and folks with warrents carrying guns?

 

the first 4 accounts you willingly hand your ID over...... yet you wont to help LEO do his job?

none of the 5 listed here are anywhere near an infringement on the 4th admendment, IMHO yet you do 4 of them but not the 5th?

 

I understand your argument, but it is peice mealing/ picking and choosing at best because the 4 you do all have state or federal statues behind them, thus coming from goverment..... so it puzzles me why pick and choose.

 

even still, we are in the same boat because I am on watch list too, LOL, so we are still on the same side.

 

Good arguement, but there is a difference, if you choose not to show your ID to the clerk, you simply leave without your beer, you leave without voting, refuse to show you ID to an LEO and try to leave the scene and see what happens.   I have no problem showing an ID to an LEO if he is going to detain me and determine if a crime has been committed or is about to be committed, but when I have broken no law and pose no threat to do so and then request an ID to run a background check is a violation of my 5th amendment right to self incrimination.

[Brian Needham]

there is no difference and here is why........

 

watch all the open carry videos.......or just listen to a bunch of OC talk.

when the LEO ask for ID the

OC always ask "are you detaining me or am I free to go"(asserting 4th amendment rights)

LEO says "no, just asking, you are free to leave anytime. I just wanted to make sure you weren't a "bad guy" "

OC is ALWAYS the one that stays to argue.

 

in fact there are some(very few) OC when the LEO say "just asking, you can go if you want." that actually do walk..then the LEO says "have a nice day, be safe".. and sure as sugar if something bad happened you better believe they would post it.

 

unless the LEO says they are detaining you, you are free to leave, walk,  drive off, skip to your lou if you wish.....just like leaving without beer, leaving without voting, buying cold meds, ect ect.

 

and just to pick at you on the 5th amendment......... it would only be self incriminating if you actually had a warrant out or are a felon/something to hide. so unless you are felon (which I doubt you are) the 5th doesn't apply technically if you are clean and law abiding. (insert congress joke here)

 

 

it is a interesting topic for sure....   

[aavery2]

there is no difference and here is why........

 

watch all the open carry videos.......or just listen to a bunch of OC talk.

when the LEO ask for ID the

OC always ask "are you detaining me or am I free to go"(asserting 4th amendment rights)

LEO says "no, just asking, you are free to leave anytime. I just wanted to make sure you weren't a "bad guy" "

OC is ALWAYS the one that stays to argue.

 

in fact there are some(very few) OC when the LEO say "just asking, you can go if you want." that actually do walk..then the LEO says "have a nice day, be safe".. and sure as sugar if something bad happened you better believe they would post it.

 

unless the LEO says they are detaining you, you are free to leave, walk,  drive off, skip to your lou if you wish.....just like leaving without beer, leaving without voting, buying cold meds, ect ect.

 

and just to pick at you on the 5th amendment......... it would only be self incriminating if you actually had a warrant out or are a felon/something to hide. so unless you are felon (which I doubt you are) the 5th doesn't apply technically if you are clean and law abiding. (insert congress joke here)

 

 

it is a interesting topic for sure....   

Fair enough if I am not being detained then I would be on my way.  Just to be fair though I have seen videos where the LEO was clearly in the wrong.  I think these laws are sensitive and everyone is better learning how to comply and enforce them.  Me, there might be a few skeletons in the closet, but I feel sure the statute of limitations has probably expired.  LOL    

 

good conversation

[Raider Nation Fisher]

I don't care if its open carry or not. One look at my beautiful bronze skin, and the cop is gonna scream "HISPANIC!!! DROP YOUR GUN!!!" To which I'm gonna look around confused, because I ain't Hispanic. Which is gonna further his suspicion. Then he's gonna yell again. To which me probably finally figuring out what is going on is gonna respond either, "que or no comprende" or something in German. Too which Mr. Cop is gonna drop me with either his .40 or his taser. Neither of which end well for me.

In conclusion. I will just keep the Glock tucked away in my pants or under my arm.

[Brian Needham]

LMAO Raider ... whew son that's a good one.

[FD.]

speedbead...I can only imagine what you see at the counter day in day out.. you hit it on the head......I hate to snip your post but here is what I have gather in my dealings

 

I ask people why do you carry and here are their answers

 

OC: because I can

CC: for personal protection

 

very different answers, and from my view (and MANY will disagree) to para phrase a golf saying:

 One carries for show and the other carries to keep his doe.

 

 

Brian I completely agree.  There is an obvious difference in the attitude between most OC vs CC.

 

Nicole and I both CC everyday and no one knows it.  People who OC want people to know.  To me that's just inviting trouble.

[00 mod]

In conclusion. I will just keep the Glock tucked away in my pants or under my arm.

 

 

That must be one stinky Glock..................

 

Jeff

[Raider Nation Fisher]

That must be one stinky Glock..................

 

Jeff

It is when I forget to where deodorant. Especially in the summer months. Then its called a Gack!

[A-Jay]

It is when I forget to where deodorant. Especially in the summer months. Then its called a Glack!

 

LOL ~ I fixed it for you.

 

A-Jay

[Stlbob]

i want to start to OC out of comfort and im tired of buying clothes a little bigger than needed to do a clean CC..I never tell anyone when i carry,dont bump my weapon ( i have caught a lot of folks doing that ) against anything,when i carry i am the ultimate mellow fellow.When you carry here you are held to be more accountable,if a fight starts and you didnt walk away and you had the chance,then you will be charged.

 

 Now thats the opposite of how it works when your home..We have very tight laws about that.Have it framed in my gun room..We can stop them while they are trying to kick in the door,they do not have to gain access to you.If they try to car jack you,or even try to get in your tent you can defend yourself..but getting in a tinkle match and letting escalte and then use deadly force is frowned upon

 

 So yeah i am going to OC,and if asked i will hand over my ID..i am a clean sheet of paper and have no issue with letting the officer find that out by running my name..I get all the uproar over the whole ID issue but to be honest it doesnt concern ' ME ' just me if it concerns others ,well best of luck to them.

[A-Jay]

My thoughts and feeling on OC are summarized very nicely here ~

 

A-Jay

 

Open carry is more than open carry

Brian G. Jeffs, 1st President, MOC, Inc.

 

It’s true that open carry has many advantages: a faster draw, a larger caliber handgun and greater round capacity; sure it’s been shown to deter crime, and it is immensely more comfortable to carry in warm weather, but it is much more than that. Open carry brings gun ownership out of the closet. It shows your friends and neighbors, your state and your country that you are not afraid of taking on the responsibility of protecting yourself and the ones you love from evil. Open carry is a visible expression of our natural right to self preservation. Open carry makes a statement that we are not afraid to stand up to the “politically correct” ideology that has created a nanny state, where the government is there to help us if we just do as they say, and a pox on anyone that disagrees. Open carry can lead us out of this stupor and deliver us once again to the days when a man could stand tall and be proud of his community, his state, and his country. When you open carry you are saying to the world, I’m my own man, I’m able and willing to defend myself, my family, and if need be my community, my state, and my country. It also states that I’m willing to stand up and speak truth to authority. It’s shameful that we as law abiding citizens must stand up to authority, the very authority that we have empowered, when questioned about our lawful right to openly carry a firearm. But stand up we must. The open carry of a firearm speaks volumes and it’s says much more than just open carry.

[HeavyDluxe]

+1 again, A-Jay...

 

I just wish people who felt like OCing to exercise their rights would just do that...  All to often, as this thread has discussed, people want to make a show out of something and invite confrontation.  That's dumb, and does little for gun rights overall, IMHO.

[Brian Needham]

 

Open carry is more than open carry

Brian G. Jeffs, 1st President, MOC, Inc.

 

It’s true that open carry has many advantages: a faster draw, a larger caliber handgun and greater round capacity;

 

 

maybe nit pick but I dont believe the quoted text...

faster draw  can be debated

Larger caliber is somewhat true..... but I have never seen a 1911 that has the mag capacity of a Glock 19, or even glock21 for that matter.

 

the rest of the article is a good read.

[Chris186]

I have nothing against anyone who wants to open carry. Personally, I would not do it.  I feel that is nobodys business if im carrying or not,  and it could possibly make you a target. For example, say you have your back turned or you arent paying attention for some reason. Gunman rush in to wherever you are, and the see the gun on your hip before you can react. They are going after you first, no question about it. Another possible scenario is that the bad guy has very little regard for life and he is carrying concealed. He sees you are armed, and takes you out before you even know who he is. Now, you can argue against me and say that these things would never happen, but honestly, you just never know.