Open Carry

[Brian Needham]

where do yall stand?

 

I love watching the vids on youtube of people making a jackass out of themselves with LEOs.

 

Arkansas has passed act 746...... which is open carry. In fact it allows anyone to open or conceal carry without permit. It just doesnt seem right...... I had to "pass" a class to CC but now everyone can?

 

seems foolish...... seems now everyone will be a suspect during a traffic stop.

 

the open carry folks do crack me up though....... its like they go looking for people to stare at them, and grade thier day by how good/bad "interaction with LEO"..... then whine about being detained and right violated simply because someone asked for ID.

 

I say if you dont like it, CC like everyone else.

and it find the bravdo of open carriers a wee bit high, sadly those who talk noramally tick thier pants when it hits the fan, but I digress.

 

what say yall??????

[aavery2]

When a citizen obeys the laws of the City and State in which he is in, why should he be detained and forced to provide ID?

[msk]

When a citizen obeys the laws of the City and State in which he is in, why should he be detained and forced to provide ID?

Exactly.

[MCS]

Here in FL you can open carry on the way, during and returning from any legal hunting or fishing activity.

That said I recall a video of a gentleman and his son being harassed by a cop in Texas for openly carrying a rifle on a hike. Both parties came with attitudes and the situation went down hill from there. We all can honestly say some Leo's do have a "god" complex going on with their "supreme" authority. It is also best that folks and police a like know the laws for their city or state.

Open carry is I feel a far better deterant than cc in that everyone knows where you stand before a situation ever escalates. And in counterpoint to the original observations of open carry, there are folks who cc that love to push situations to be able to flex their concealed muscle. There are dumb folks for either side, but most folks who comply with these laws are responsible law abiding citizens.

And ideally, maybe a little utopian, but wouldn't a law abiding citizen open carrying be ideal for a Leo. In fact state any concealed weapon to be ban forcing all "good guys" to display thus making it easier to distinguish good folks from bad? Anybody with a gun in their waist band gets a trip to the pokey.

[Brian Needham]

I dont have a issue with open carry per say.

 

I have found open carry has more attitude than CC, thats my experience, others may vary.

 

I also see it ultra foolish to not show ID when asked, it dont make good sense to me...... show your ID and its a 30 sec interaction with LEO...... yet the open carry on youtube want to stand there and rant for 10 minutes..... if you dont want to talk to LEO then why we you standing there talking for 10 minutes?? its stupid!

 

but they want to stand there to talk for ten minutes so they can brag to thier friends and film it...... they go looking for it..... which it TOTALLY contadicts the point and reason of open carry, IMO.

 

plus open carry holds no tactical advantage over CC.

[Brian Needham]

I think whether we agree or disagree...... we have crazies in both camp, both CC and OC.

 

 

I for one have talked to several LEO in my area and they all say they are glad myself/and others CC. they tell me "never leave home without it" ....... but me personally I would never open carry on the streets of Memphis...

[MCS]

Yes I see your point if all parties are civil to one another then the open carry shouldn't have a problem showing ID and the thing should be a nice quick and friendly process....after all we are both working towards the same goal a safe and peaceful society. Problem is one or the other have attitude, someone has to be big, bad or right. What's it called...pride? Lol no body wants to work together.

[A-Jay]

I live in what is by and large a rural area. 

 

Very little if any "Street Crime" seen on urban news casts, ever occurs here.

 

This is an OC state and it's very common.

 

A-Jay

[Brian Needham]

Yes I see your point if all parties are civil to one another then the open carry shouldn't have a problem showing ID and the thing should be a nice quick and friendly process....after all we are both working towards the same goal a safe and peaceful society. Problem is one or the other have attitude, someone has to be big, bad or right. What's it called...pride? Lol no body wants to work together.

 TRUTH!

[Brian Needham]

I live in what is by and large a rural area. 

 

Very little if any "Street Crime" seen on urban news casts, ever occurs here.

 

This is an OC state and it's very common.

 

A-Jay

 

you got it right....... rural areas its not a big deal.... NYC totally different book.

 

not that it should be, but it is what it is.

 

as always I enjoy your take on things Ajay

[Duckbutter100]

I dont understand why folks would OC(handgun) in public. Personally I think having a CCW gives you a large advantage in most situations where you will actually need it. 

 

I don't mind the folks who make those videos if their point is to educate LEO's and general public what the laws are supposed to be and what you can legally do without being harassed. I don't like the fact they ask for ID because you have a legal firearm. I get why they do ask but it makes for a slippery slope for law enforcement and after its done enough it becomes "the norm" although where legal they have no right to ask.

 

If I open carried and was asked for ID I would show it but it would come with an explaination stating how really there is no reason for me to hand over my ID in this situation. I would of course be as polite as possible.

[flyfisher]

Virginia is an open carry state (I am pretty sure) and i have never seen anyone open carry.  I don't care either way but it would seem that a CC at least has a few checks in place to ensure the carrier at least knows what they should do in a situation.

 

Also, who is to say the criminals won't open carry too. 

 

The other thing people miss is that LEO have a very tough job and have to take the best interest of the overall public in a given area into consideration when approaching a person.  If someone open carrying in a place causes unrest i don't have any problem with a LEO talking to the person and letting them know that while their behavior is completely within the realm of the law, it can still make people feel uncomfortable.  

 

I personally don't see an OC as anything more than an attention grab and a hey look at me mentality but like i said, that is my perception and even if not the OC person's intent, perception is a big deal and does not educate anyone really.

[MCS]

Here is an interesting article that I read in the newspaper a few weeks ago it illustrates this topic pretty well.

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-01-11/story/jacksonville-beach-pier-making-statement-gun-rights-and-perhaps-catching

[Stlbob]

It is part of our right in most states.They are trying to introduce a bill here just for that.In AZ open carry is so common.I was standing in line behind a guy resting his elbow on his 1911.

 

If asked i will always be polite to leo's. I know several and while you may not be an issue they deal with many that are,so adding just a little drama to their day does no one any good.

 

When it is passed here my gun will be like my pants,i will feel naked without it. I CC now and YES it is in our laws that you can open carry.No matter what bill is passed or how well know that it passed people ( non gun ) will always be flaky about open carry..I will be very happy to get the gun out of my pants and on the outside.

[A-Jay]

The OC vs CC topic will always be fuel for a spirited debate.

 

Interpreting another mans intentions and abilities with a weapon as good or bad, solely on how he chooses to wear it, is something I would not do.

 

I personally encourage Everyone to OC, and I mean Everyone.  Just like every aspect of life, some are better than others, in everything.  The responsibility of owning and handling a side arm is no different. 

Citizens who chose to CC are not a special breed by any means.  They do not have any more or less training, practice or better judgment.  They just keep their gun under their shirt.

 

A-Jay

[HeavyDluxe]

I'll stick my nose in the hornet's nest.

 

First off, I live in a state where open and concealed carry are legal without permit.  In the neighboring state, you can OC without permit, but must get a permit to CC.  

 

I've encountered people OC in both states... For the most part, it goes unnoticed.  I guess as a 'gun guy' I notice because I'm looking for them.  I followed someone OCing through the supermarket one day.  I remember watching other customers glance at the gun, then almost shake it off ("No, it couldn't be a gun.").  I think that, ideally, that's the way it's supposed to be.  Now, if I was in a context where there was more gun-related crime or sensitivity, I imagine OCing would be much more provocative and rarely go unnoticed.

 

I recognize that there are probably tactical considerations that would make CC a better option than OC.  That said, I think that people should be free to OC any time they want.  And, assuming they're not doing anything threatening or illegal, they shouldn't be harassed by law enforcement.  If an LEO arrives to a call that someone has a gun and determines it's someone OCing, then observation should be enough and it should end there.

 

As far as CC licensees having more 'training' than people exercising OC:  I think that's largely bunk.  The CC classes in most states are more legalese than training.  And while OCers may be gun-waving fanatics in some cases, a fair number are people who take shooting seriously.  Either way, the right to self defense and CC/OC is not an issue of skills anyway.  

[flyfisher]

I am guessing legalese is pretty important should you have to use your gun and those ramifications should be understood or at least acknowledged because even in a self defense case, it will still be up to you to prove that it was just that, self defense. 

[Brian Needham]

heavy deluxe........that is a well rounded take. and I agree.

 

with the CC without a permit....... here is where I differ, and I can admit that it is a sole product of where I live, which is pretty average America (sadly)

 

guy gets stopped.  drugs are found and a gun. the drug charge is more often than not dropped or pleaded out, but the gun charge always sticks.

but if you are allowed to CC without permit, the criminal at this point walks off all charges. which is bad, IMO.

 

don't get me wrong I am a gun supporter, however I don't think any side has this 100% right 100% of the time.

 

take for instance the "I don't show ID crowd" ... (list is devils advocate)

 

do you support voter ID? then show your ID to LEO

do you show ID for beer? then show it  to LEO

do you show ID at the bank? then show it to LEO

would you or do you have a problem with a couple of muslim guys driving a Uhaul being asked for ID? then you need to show yours to LEO

Have an issue with Trayvon being asked? then show yours to LEO

Have a cold, need meds? better whip out that ID

Need to renew your car tags? get that ID ready

 

I could go on and on, but I think yall see my point...... we show ID for numerous things so its no big deal right?

but I guess if you are in a "sovereign citizen" camp, I digress.  

 

heavy delux I don't want you to think I am directing this at you cause I am not..... I agree with your post, then I got off on a tangent LOL

[fadetoblack21]

Traffic stops are irrelevant since I come from a state (Missouri) which allows the carry of a handgun in ones car without a permit, and I am grateful for that. With that said, I think it is foolish to allow any Joe on the street to carry concealed without proper training.

 

I fully agree with open carry where it's allowed. What I do not agree with are these open carry camera jockeys who feel they need to show their "constitutional superiority" over the local LEO's like you see in most youtube videos. All this does is draw negative attention to those of us who carry peacefully with good intentions.

 

Have I open carried before? Yes! Do I comply with an officers requests when he asks? Yes! Do I whip out my camera phone and record the altercation while spouting some convoluted constitutional crap to make myself look superior? NO. 

[HeavyDluxe]

Hi, Brian... Thanks for the response.  Up front, I'm all for healthy and respectful debate... These things just tend to degenerate.  

 

Glad we agree on the 2nd Amendment and the general principles of firearms ownership.  We need to be united to keep those freedoms secure.  That said, I can't help but respond to this section of your post:

do you support voter ID? then show your ID to LEO

do you show ID for beer? then show it  to LEO

do you show ID at the bank? then show it to LEO

would you or do you have a problem with a couple of muslim guys driving a Uhaul being asked for ID? then you need to show yours to LEO

Have an issue with Trayvon being asked? then show yours to LEO

Have a cold, need meds? better whip out that ID

Need to renew your car tags? get that ID ready

 

I could go on and on, but I think yall see my point...... we show ID for numerous things so its no big deal right?

 

The problem I see with your reasoning is that all the things you listed don't correlate, in any way, to having to identify yourself to a law enforcement agent.  The same Constitution that secures the freedom to own firearms also secures, "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" unless said LEO has probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed or is imminent.  A law enforcement officer, without awareness of illegal activity, who asks a free citizen for identification is violating that person's rights under the Fourth Amendment.  That is not true, in anything approaching the same way, for the items you list.

 

Buying beer is not an inalienable, human right.  It is a privilege and a licensure.  Having a bank account, getting cold meds, driving or owning a motor vehicle.  These are not the same thing.

 

AND, just to put it all on the line, I have a HUGE FREAKING problem with LEOs asking anyone driving a vehicle (regardless of make or their ethnicity) to whip out an ID unless there is enough credible evidence (probable cause) to suspect a crime has been committed or is imminent.  

 

I believe the purpose in the framers' mind in securing our rights in the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments specifically shows a fundamental point about free societies:  Bad things can happen.  People can use the freedoms afforded to them to do bad things to other good, free people.  But, we accept that as a risk to live in a society where I enjoy the benefits of those freedoms myself.

 

And so, respectfully, I will never show my ID to any law officer unless they are detaining me under suspicion of committing a crime or I'm otherwise legally compelled to do so (traffic stops, for example).  Otherwise, I will - again, respectfully - ask that officer to conduct themselves with appropriate respect for my 4th Amendment rights.  

 

 

Since another reply's come in while I've been typing... I want to make clear that some people in my camp get massive jollies bucking LEOs with their (as that poster said) "constitutional superiority".  And that is a shame and, as noted, makes us all look bad.  However, I fear that our desire to be seen as more reasonable than those jackasses risks allowing for more slow erosion of our rights.  Think about it... How few Americans understand their rights under the 5th Amendment, or know that the cops are allowed to lie to them in any interrogation?  

 

So, I don't go looking for a fight over my rights (fwiw, I don't personally CC or OC at this time)... But, I will guard those rights fervently, and yet respectfully, any time agents of our government who are under oath to protect them wade a little too close to the line.

 

 

It's possible we're all on the same side here, so if I launched a salvo at the "Amen Corner" of the hall, I apologize.  

[Brian Needham]

thanks, Heavy dluxe!

 

yes we are all on the same side, which is why said that list is "devils adovcate"

 

but I shall contend..... Ben Franklin said Beer is proof that there is a God, and he loves us! so it must be an inaleinable right!!!! LMAO just a little humor to start the morning.

 

really though, the list shows all the things we do, while not supected of a crime, we show ID. so I dont find it a big deal to show it to LEO. I dont find it an infringment on my 4th or 5th..... I find it (as a law abiding guy) helping LEO...... no if they want to pilfer through my truck, or generally pat me down, then thats a different story. we probably disagree on that one and thats ok cause that is a really fine line. that said,  I totally agree on the difference between private sector asking for ID(cold medicine ect) and GOV asking.

 

I dont wouldnt consent to searches either, though I never been asked either. on the off chance I am stopped, I tell them I am CC, LEO ask where is it, I tell them, LEO says dont show me yours and I wont show you mine..... everyone walks away happy and safe.

 

I must say too, many of my thoughts and practices are due to what happened in my town a few years ago..... a soverign citizen and his 16 year old son were getting off the exit here and were pulled over for speeding (IIRC) he didnt have a drivers license cause he didnt believe in it, traffic stop continued yadda yadda.... then the 16 year old son pops out of the van with an AK47 and mows down the 2 LEOS on the side of the road left for dead, both LEO die..... all becasue this idiot thought paying for a DL was infringeing on his "rights" .....  the 2 sovergin citizens get trapped in the walmart parking trying to change plates and die in a hail of gun fire....... 2 LEO lost their life, and a few other injured , plus 2 citizens died..... all because someone didnt want to show or have ID. IMO, there is no reason for any of that to happen.

 

I think we all agree on the camera jockys are sad and silly......it is amazing how a spoonfull of poop ruins the entire bowl of ice cream!

 

thanks for joining the fray..... I like talking about these types of things and getting in depth without degrading to a "I am more conservative or more correct than you"........ so amen corners are a ok!

 

I love the castle doctrine, stand your ground laws btw.

[A-Jay]

 

 

AND, just to put it all on the line, I have a HUGE FREAKING problem with LEOs asking anyone driving a vehicle (regardless of make or their ethnicity) to whip out an ID unless there is enough credible evidence (probable cause) to suspect a crime has been committed or is imminent.  

 

I believe the purpose in the framers' mind in securing our rights in the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments specifically shows a fundamental point about free societies:  Bad things can happen.  People can use the freedoms afforded to them to do bad things to other good, free people.  But, we accept that as a risk to live in a society where I enjoy the benefits of those freedoms myself.

 

And so, respectfully, I will never show my ID to any law officer unless they are detaining me under suspicion of committing a crime or I'm otherwise legally compelled to do so (traffic stops, for example).  Otherwise, I will - again, respectfully - ask that officer to conduct themselves with appropriate respect for my 4th Amendment rights.  

 

 

 

It's possible we're all on the same side here, so if I launched a salvo at the "Amen Corner" of the hall, I apologize.  

 

 

As a former FLEO, I did the majority of my work on the water.  While aboard a vessel, for my own safety and the security of my boarding team, I definitely wanted to know who I was talking to.  A solo LEO making a traffic stop, will most assuredly want to be afforded the same information.   Hi My name is John Doe, is not going to be sufficient in any scenario.  The few minutes you may feel inconvenienced are always viewed as a life threatening evolution for the LEO, it simply must be approached this way.  Though an ID does not completely mitigate the danger it does help drop it down a notch.    So a forward thinking, law abiding citizen has the choice of working with the LEO during say a traffic stop for instance, by turning off your vehicle (radio & phone), turning the inside lights on, sitting still with hands on the top of the steering wheel as the officer approaches, and removing sunglasses.

 

 And I totally agree with your rights to do as you choose in this and any situation.  However you should understand what the LEO's rights are during these as well.  Safety will always come first, your rights will be afforded but not at the sacrifice of Officer Safety.  

 

With all this in mind, now add a hand gun . . . . . . .

 

A-Jay

[SPEEDBEAD.]

I have the unique perspective of working in the gun department of a large retailer, so I encounter more "gun guys" than most people.

 

A couple things I have problems with:

 

1. OC your pistol and the person feeling the need to direct my attention towards it while we are talking.

2. Even worse, CC your pistol and feeling the need to let me know you are carrying it while we are talking.

 

The point is having it for protection in the unfortunate event you need it. It's not a dickwagging contest where you win by letting me know you have a gun.

 

My state allows OC by any person legally able to possess a handgun and CC by "shall issue" permit from the Sheriff's office in your county of residence. Personally, I feel that if you have a CC permit you should CC. Why go through the expense and paperwork just so you can do what comes as a naturally granted right in the state? I don't get it. "Because I can" is not a sufficient answer in this case, IMO.

 

Funny story. A few of us from our store went on a fishing trip. My manager invited a couple of his buddies from his hometown. My friend and I (he is LEO) were fishing in my boat when my manager and his buddy came pulling up to say "hi."  The first words out of this guy's mouth were, "I dont want either of you to be alarmed, but I have a gun on the boat," and he proceeds to point to his passenger compartment on the console. Without hesitation, my friend and I both raised our shirts slightly and proclaimed, "It's ok, we have them too."  He didnt say a word....

[HeavyDluxe]

Hey, A-Jay... Thanks for the post.  Before I write a reply, I want to take the chance to tell you how much I enjoy your posts on here.  If I am scanning a long thread, I almost always stop to read what you say.
 

As a former FLEO, I did the majority of my work on the water.  While aboard a vessel, for my own safety and the security of my boarding team, I definitely wanted to know who I was talking to.  A solo LEO making a traffic stop, will most assuredly want to be afforded the same information.   Hi My name is John Doe, is not going to be sufficient in any scenario.

Of course...  But, unless I'm missing something, I think the fact that you are either part of a boarding party or traffic stop as a LEO indicates that you have some measure of probable cause to be there in the first place.  For example, as an LEO you can't stop me and ask for ID 'just because'.  You can if I'm driving erratically or if my vehicle matches the description of one that's stolen or belongs to someone suspected in another illegal activity.  That's why I specifically mentioned vehicle stops in my first post as an exception.
 
And, again, it's important to note that stopping me to check whether I am properly licensed to be operating a motor vehicle (even without cause) is still a whole different thing than stopping me and asking for ID while I'm walking down the street exercising a legal, Constitutional right to carry - assuming, of course, that OC is legal in that area.  
 
There's a huge difference between rights and a licensure, and it's a distinction that far too few Americans (civilian and public servants alike) understand.  I cringe every time someone says something like "I have a right to drive a car", etc.  No, actually you don't.
 
So, if a LEO is carrying out a legal traffic stop or vessel boarding, of course there's appropriate reasons for them to ask to see ID.  But, if a citizen is OCing in a legal state and the police get a call re: a 'man with a gun', they are not authorized to ask for ID unless they have other probable cause to believe the person is going to commit a crime.
 
I imagine we agree here, but thought it was worth clarifying... As the son of a military and civilian police office, I recognize that there are valid cases where - for the officer's safety and for the reasonable enforcement of certain laws - an officer needs to see identification.
 

And I totally agree with your rights to do as you choose in this and any situation. However you should understand what the LEO's rights are during these as well. Safety will always come first, your rights will be afforded but not at the sacrifice of Officer Safety.

Again, we largely agree here... Though I will pick one nit and then make one soapbox point.

1. The nit:  Actually, I think that part of the sacrifice we ask officers of the law and military personnel to make when they assume their office is precisely that their safety is lessened at the expense of protecting/enforcing the law.  In other words, while I want officers to be safe, I actually think individual rights of the citizen are more sacred.  Again, as the son of a cop, I know what that means on the ground for those officers so I don't say this lightly or flippantly.  But, this is exactly why good public servants are to be honored and esteemed.
2. The soapbox:  I totally agree that LEOs face increasing risks every day... I'm thankful that my father is not on the force any more, because the day-to-day risks for the men and women who serve are much worse. It's certainly true that life and death hang in the balance much more often than any of us wish.  Still, I'm concerned (and I think my father would echo the same concern) that so many in law enforcement and supporting politicians focus on the risks.  I fear we're breeding a culture in our law enforcement agencies that's hyper-vigilant and more prone to excess uses of force.  Part of this, regrettably, also has to do with the abysmal lack of regular training for most agencies.  Tax dollars are scarce, and departments have to make do with what they have.  And so, the first thing that gets cut is often training.  (For example, how many normal LEOs get department sponsored range time/weapons training outside of yearly qualifications?  Up here, precious few.)  Those things combine to make a very dangerous cocktail for all involved.  

 

FWIW, if there are other LEOs out here reading, I hope you read these posts with the tone I intend.  I'm grateful for the very difficult job that you all do for us and mean absolutely no disrespect in these statements.

[A-Jay]

_{Hey, A-Jay... Thanks for the post.  Before I write a reply, I want to take the chance to tell you how much I enjoy your posts on here.  If I am scanning a long thread, I almost always stop to read what you say.}

 

_{Of course...  But, unless I'm missing something, I think the fact that you are either part of a boarding party or traffic stop as a LEO indicates that you have some measure of probable cause to be there in the first place.  For example, as an LEO you can't stop me and ask for ID 'just because'.  You can if I'm driving erratically or if my vehicle matches the description of one that's stolen or belongs to someone suspected in another illegal activity.  That's why I specifically mentioned vehicle stops in my first post as an exception.}

 

And, again, it's important to note that stopping me to check whether I am properly licensed to be operating a motor vehicle (even without cause) is still a whole different thing than stopping me and asking for ID while I'm walking down the street exercising a legal, Constitutional right to carry - assuming, of course, that OC is legal in that area.  

 

There's a huge difference between rights and a licensure, and it's a distinction that far too few Americans (civilian and public servants alike) understand.  I cringe every time someone says something like "I have a right to drive a car", etc.  No, actually you don't.

 

So, if a LEO is carrying out a legal traffic stop or vessel boarding, of course there's appropriate reasons for them to ask to see ID.  But, if a citizen is OCing in a legal state and the police get a call re: a 'man with a gun', they are not authorized to ask for ID unless they have other probable cause to believe the person is going to commit a crime.

 

I imagine we agree here, but thought it was worth clarifying... As the son of a military and civilian police office, I recognize that there are valid cases where - for the officer's safety and for the reasonable enforcement of certain laws - an officer needs to see identification.

 

_{Again, we largely agree here... Though I will pick one nit and then make one soapbox point.}

1. _{The nit:  Actually, I think that part of the sacrifice we ask officers of the law and military personnel to make when they assume their office is precisely that their safety is lessened at the expense of protecting/enforcing the law.  In other words, while I want officers to be safe, I actually think individual rights of the citizen are more sacred.  Again, as the son of a cop, I know what that means on the ground for those officers so I don't say this lightly or flippantly.  But, this is exactly why good public servants are to be honored and esteemed.}
2. _{The soapbox:  I totally agree that LEOs face increasing risks every day... I'm thankful that my father is not on the force any more, because the day-to-day risks for the men and women who serve are much worse. It's certainly true that life and death hang in the balance much more often than any of us wish.  Still, I'm concerned (and I think my father would echo the same concern) that so many in law enforcement and supporting politicians focus on the risks.  I fear we're breeding a culture in our law enforcement agencies that's hyper-vigilant and more prone to excess uses of force.  Part of this, regrettably, also has to do with the abysmal lack of regular training for most agencies.  Tax dollars are scarce, and departments have to make do with what they have.  And so, the first thing that gets cut is often training.  (For example, how many normal LEOs get department sponsored range time/weapons training outside of yearly qualifications?  Up here, precious few.)  Those things combine to make a very dangerous cocktail for all involved.}  

 

_{FWIW, if there are other LEOs out here reading, I hope you read these posts with the tone I intend.  I'm grateful for the very difficult job that you all do for us and mean absolutely no disrespect in these statements.}

 

_{Fair enough.  I'll add this final thought and then I'm out.}

 

_{Having a family member LEO does afford one a perspective that most will never know.}

 

_{However, if my Dad flew fighter jets, though I may know a lot about it, if you put me in the pilot seat, I'd be lost.}

 

_A-Jay