Are Largemouth Bass Line Shy?

[EvanT123]

When read the threads on this and other forums the vast majority of braided line users tie on a FC leader using Uni knots, Albert knots, etc...2 knots; 1 to splice on the leader, the 2nd to tie on the lure or hook.

Why?

Tom

I'm not the strongest guy in the world by any means; I can curl 30lb dumbbell a pretty good but cannot for the life of me break off braid. Even 10lb braid. So I like to tie a leader to make break offs and reties easier. Also trying to tie braid when it's windy can be a real pita. Also to avoid slicing my hand which still happens and to avoid snapping my rod under pressure. That's my reason more so than visability.

[mjseverson24]

I believe that bass can and do see lines in the water, and I also believe based on specific events that it can negatively effect the fishes attitude in wanting to eat a lure. here is some food for thought, I use FC now say that line visibility has no impact on bass, does me using FC decrease my chance of catching fish? NO... now say bass are affected negatively by visible lines, do I now have an advantage over visible lines? Absolutely... 

 

Mitch

[Team9nine]

Why would anyone use mono or FC line, braid is smaller in diameter, stronger, last longer, doesn't twist.
The answer is anglers believe bass are line shy and mono or FC will improve the size and number of bass they can catch.

Tom

 

 

Can only speak for myself and the way I fish, but the answer is simply because the advantages of using a fluorocarbon leader with braid outweigh the advantages of tying braid straight to my bait IMO. Obviously doesn't apply in all scenarios, but in enough to change my behavior.

 

1. Fluorocarbon, due to it’s density, provides a little extra weight at the end of the line to help baits stay down against the inherent tendency of the superlines, which are lighter density and actually float. This is more an issue when finesse fishing with small, lightweight baits.

 

2. The leader material also provides an inherent amount of stretch, which provides two benefits. The first is that it cushions the direct pressure of the almost no-stretch properties of the superline, which allows for better playing ability with big bass and small hooks, as well as overzealous hook sets. More importantly though, it allows you to use a traditional bow-and-arrow snap to free lures that get hung in rocks or limbs. This is a largely overlooked concept.

 

3. Fluorocarbon is a very tough material, and so a leader of fluorocarbon holds up well to constant fishing around things like rocks and mussels, cover areas that most anglers tend to believe are a weakness for superlines.

 

4. A leader also saves main line. I can start with a four to seven foot fluorocarbon leader and fish all day, retying as necessary and never get into my superline mainline until it’s time to replace the entire leader. This helps save and maintain the original length of superline spooled on your reel. You can easily fish an entire year or two on a single spool of superline as long as you don’t lose enough of it from retying.

 

5. With many finesse baits and lighter superlines, the thin diameter superline can actually get caught in or slip out through the hook eye in many cases. Using a leader of thicker material prevents this from happening.

 

6. And finally, yes, for anglers who are concerned about line visibility, a leader does help mentally in clear water situations. That psychological element can be very important to the angler and the way he fishes, whether it's a meaningless exercise as far as the fish are concerned or not.

[WRB]

Why would anyone use mono or FC line, braid is smaller in diameter, stronger, last longer, doesn't twist.

The answer is anglers believe bass are line shy and mono or FC will improve the size and number of bass they can catch.

Tom

Can only speak for myself and the way I fish, but the answer is simply because the advantages of using a fluorocarbon leader with braid outweigh the advantages of tying braid straight to my bait IMO. Obviously doesn't apply in all scenarios, but in enough to change my behavior.

1. Fluorocarbon, due to it’s density, provides a little extra weight at the end of the line to help baits stay down against the inherent tendency of the superlines, which are lighter density and actually float. This is more an issue when finesse fishing with small, lightweight baits.

2. The leader material also provides an inherent amount of stretch, which provides two benefits. The first is that it cushions the direct pressure of the almost no-stretch properties of the superline, which allows for better playing ability with big bass and small hooks, as well as overzealous hook sets. More importantly though, it allows you to use a traditional bow-and-arrow snap to free lures that get hung in rocks or limbs. This is a largely overlooked concept.

3. Fluorocarbon is a very tough material, and so a leader of fluorocarbon holds up well to constant fishing around things like rocks and mussels, cover areas that most anglers tend to believe are a weakness for superlines.

4. A leader also saves main line. I can start with a four to seven foot fluorocarbon leader and fish all day, retying as necessary and never get into my superline mainline until it’s time to replace the entire leader. This helps save and maintain the original length of superline spooled on your reel. You can easily fish an entire year or two on a single spool of superline as long as you don’t lose enough of it from retying.

5. With many finesse baits and lighter superlines, the thin diameter superline can actually get caught in or slip out through the hook eye in many cases. Using a leader of thicker material prevents this from happening.

6. And finally, yes, for anglers who are concerned about line visibility, a leader does help mentally in clear water situations. That psychological element can be very important to the angler and the way he fishes, whether it's a meaningless exercise as far as the fish are concerned or not.

Let me play devils advocate;

1. How bouyant do you believe super braid is, keep in mind the diameter is 1/3 rd that of FC. Do you think it could float a size 4 mosquito hook for example? The answer is no the hook will sink braid. Ounce the surface tension is broken, braid become close to neutral buoyancy underwater.

2. How far do you think you can stretch FC line without it yielding and taking a permanent set at the stretched diameter? Answer about 30% tensile load. If you are using 15 lb FC and apply 1.5 lbs load, the line yields starts to stretch, at 5 lbs the FC line takes a permanent set, stays deformed and weakened. The weakest area is the knot.

Lets say your leader length is 7', try strechingv7' of FC line and measure the movement; how long it is at 1/3rd line strength and length it returns after stretching or it's elasticity.

3. FC line may be hard but it isn't cut resistant from sharp edges, therefor has less abrasion resistance than most mono line. Increasing the abrasion resistance also increases the memory to take a coil set on the reel.

Most anglers do not use FC line where zebra/quagga mussels are a problem.

4. Other than tying on lures, you shouldn't need to cut off braid to retie. You can reverse raid and use both ends of the spooled line.

5. Super glue prevents braid from moving.

6. We become more confident by catching bass.

Keep in mind there are two sides to this bebate. I am only pointing out facts.

I believe braid has some advantages and disadvantages. The only time I personally use braid is in heavy vegation cover because it cuts through the weeds.

I tried braid down to 8 lb on spinning finesse presentations without a leader and didn't see any difference in bass caught per hour verses 6 lb FC. However using FC leader on braid the lost bass due to knot failures was higher than all braid or all FC, on spinning reels. Braid advantage was no line twist, disadvantage was wind loops and digging down into the spooled line.

I may give braid another try this year jig fishing, after the pre spawn. Like everyone else I believe giant FLMB bass are line shy at times and 1 time could be a bass of a lifetime. 2 knots is 1 to many with FC line.

Tom

[BassCats]

This is a good debate and I am amazed how well we are staying on topic. I only use mono when night fishing because of the fluorescent properties. They no longer make any fluorescent braids. I use Braid during the day and have not noticed a difference. I like the feel of braid and am comfortable using it in all situations. At night I have trouble seeing my line, and though I feel more with braid, I still line watch for most strikes. I have never had any problems with Mono either though. I do not feel that it stretches too much or anything, I just feel more with the braid. 

[Team9nine]

Those are all good points, Tom. To clarify, when I said "the way I fish," I should add that most of my braid fishing is done with finesse tactics - some might say ultra-finesse, though I don't classify it that way. My experience is based on catching thousands of bass every year, over half of which are with braid/fluoro outfits, as well as nearly all my crappie jigging outfits (another thousand fish/yr or so), and after having tested both (leadered and leaderless braid). So, I guess I would push back with:

 

1. - Doesn't matter how neutral braid becomes underwater after sinking. When trying to fish something like a small 1/32-oz or 1/16-oz. jighead or split shot rig along the bottom, and especially deep, you will notice a difference between the fluorocarbon leadered and non-leadered use of braid, especially if that leader is in the 4'-7' range or greater. It is also for this reason that some of the best finesse bass pros recommend going straight fluorocarbon when fishing deep water. The extra density does make a difference at times, though perhaps not near as much when using standard sized tackle and baits.

 

2. - Most guys will not generate 5lbs of force at the knot unless trying to pull their baits out of a snag, or a major hookset with heavier equipment; never an issue with finesse. If you get snagged and simply start "bow stringing" your line to get unstuck, you'll easily benefit from the stretch factor without ever reaching the point of plasticity you mention.

 

3. - As for abrasion, while it certainly depends on brand and formulation, there's not too many people that will tell you braid is better for fishing rocks and rocky bottoms. And while no line is cut resistant, testing done by Tackle Tour comparing fluorocarbon to their baseline monofilament showed that when wet, mono lost 50% of it's abrasion resistance and became less abrasion resistant than every fluorocarbon tested. As for zebra/quagga's, most all the guys I've spoken with or read about who fish the northern Great Lakes area (home) where they (mussels) are abundant, have all switched to using a fluorocarbon leader with their braid because braid alone cuts much faster when fishing in those conditions.

 

4. - I agree that if you are pretty settled on a particular bait for a particular outfit and don't need to change throughout the day, straight braid is better. This is probably more likely if you bring a whole bunch of outfits with you every trip. My hunch though is, I tend to think that most people are a bit more likely to change and retie lures more frequently than we think, whether to fish a different colored bait or to switch lure types completely, especially if they're not getting bit. If you use something like a Palomar and change baits frequently over the course of a slow day, you could easily lose several feet of braided line per day.

 

5. - Super Glue is alright if you like having one more thing to do every time you retie, and you are good at not gluing your fingers together.

 

6. - I agree. As we've seen by posts here, some anglers need/want the psychological benefit, some don't. Whatever seems to help you catch the most fish is what you should be doing. On my waters, tying straight to braid, no matter the color, rarely if ever, makes any difference to the fish.

 

-T9

[Scott F]

I'm most of the way through Bill Murphy's book and he would strongly argue that bass are line shy. Although he is specifically talking about giant bass in high pressured lakes, so this may play a roll. I think I agree with Murphy for the most part. I feel that older bigger bass may be more line shy than the younger more aggressive ones, but certainly couldn't say for sure. I do use fluorocarbon with bottom contact presentations, but as already stated, I use it for it's density and sinking properties which contributes to its slack line sensitivity. 

 

I'm curious as to what evidence Bill Murphy presents in his book to support his theory about bass being line shy. 

[Joe Schmuckatelli]

I think this whole braid and leader stuff is a fad, they're selling it and your buying it

[jhoffman]

Try this one some time. Get some different samples of line, a pair of goggles. Lay the line on the surface of a pool and look up at the line.

 

I think in certain situations yes they can see it, others not so much.

 

Ive seen the trout species reject a fly tied to 4x and hammer one tied to 6x. Those not in the know... 4x is 5lbs of break strength, 6x is 3lbs. Ive seen this happen both fishing dry flies and wet flies. At times when pressure is really heavy on C&R streams ive seen where the difference between 6x and 7x(2lbs) will change your day.

[jhoffman]

This video at one point was only available for sale. I own the entire series but this is EXCELLENT and even if you dont trout fish, you should watch this all underwater footage.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/xzubsz

[mnbassman23]

I believe braid has some advantages and disadvantages. The only time I personally use braid is in heavy vegation cover because it cuts through the weeds.

I tried braid down to 8 lb on spinning finesse presentations without a leader and didn't see any difference in bass caught per hour verses 6 lb FC. However using FC leader on braid the lost bass due to knot failures was higher than all braid or all FC, on spinning reels. Braid advantage was no line twist, disadvantage was wind loops and digging down into the spooled line.

I may give braid another try this year jig fishing, after the pre spawn. Like everyone else I believe giant FLMB bass are line shy at times and 1 time could be a bass of a lifetime. 2 knots is 1 to many with FC line.

Tom

Tom- I am a straight braid kind of guy 90% of the time and my fishing partner is 100% braid. I fish mostly heavily weeded lakes and more times than not visibility is in the .5-3 foot range. Personally I am unsure and undecided on my stance of this topic. There are numerous dimensions of line that could cause a fish to become line shy. Lake type and confidence has me fishing mostly braid. 

 

I have a feeling that you have more insight to line shy bass than just  the line I bolded in your statement above. You have a wealth of bass knowledge and if you would further your opinion i think a lot of us would appreciate it. You have posed a great question but not much of your thoughts on the matter. 

 

How many anglers on your lakes do you think run straight braid setups? If it is not that many than do these bass realize what braid is? How does it affect them? Why does it affect them? Is it the color/visibility issue? Is it the action it imparts on the lure by floating vs sinking of fluorocarbon? Does any type of heavier line vs lighter line cause bass to become more line shy, even if its Fluoro? If so what is the factor causing them to become line shy? Is it due to visibility, can they feel the line itself, is it the difference in lure action, rate of fall, etc etc etc. 

 

Every fish is different, every body of water is different, and peoples opinion differ. It's easy to say that bass are line shy, wether thats fact or marketing I'm not sure. 

[KDW96]

Try this one some time. Get some different samples of line, a pair of goggles. Lay the line on the surface of a pool and look up at the line.

 

I think in certain situations yes they can see it, others not so much.

 

Ive seen the trout species reject a fly tied to 4x and hammer one tied to 6x. Those not in the know... 4x is 5lbs of break strength, 6x is 3lbs. Ive seen this happen both fishing dry flies and wet flies. At times when pressure is really heavy on C&R streams ive seen where the difference between 6x and 7x(2lbs) will change your day.

 

Thanks for the link. Great video. You will learn somethings that will apply to bass also.I would like to have this series.

[jhoffman]

Thanks for the link. Great video. You will learn somethings that will apply to bass also.I would like to have this series.

 

No problem, the whole series is really worth owning. Information that in depth about outdoor subjects is tough to find. I have been building a library of important information to pass on to my son incase anything would happen before he is grown.

[Felix77]

IMO there are two "Rules of Thumb".

 

#1 - The "clearer" the water the "clearer" the line..

#2 - The slower the presentation the "clearer" the line.

 

Use the line which gives you the best advantage to meet both of those needs.  Err on the side of "Clearer is better".

 

So for example

 

Clear water / Slow presentation like a shakey head/drop shot.  I use 8lb FC and drag slowly along the bottom.

Clear water / moderate presentation like a swimbait, spinnerbait.  I up the size to 12lb FC with a moderate retrieve.

Clear water / fast presentation like an alabama rig.  I up it to 20lb FC with a moderate to fast retrieve.

 

stained water / Slow presentation like T-rigged worm or craw.  I use 10lb Braid and drag slowly along the bottom.

stained water / moderate presentation like a chatterbait.  I'm comfortable using 10lb Braid but generally stay with 12lb FC with a moderate retrieve.

stained water / fast presentation like an alabama rig.  I up it to 40lb Braid with a moderate to fast retrieve.

 

One variance to my "Rule of Thumbs"

 

Grass - You can treat grass like you do clarity IMO.  This allows you to assess sparse cover vs thick cover.the same way.

 

That is why you can get away with a 65lb Braid Flippin' Stick setup in thicker cover situations.

[JayKumar]

They are line shy at various times and places.  It's impossible to say why, just note it and adjust accordingly.

[Brian Needham]

everyone speaks of line and such but the coathanger of an Arig disproves it somewhat.

 

the fact that the Arig works better the clearer the water makes the line thoery even more blown up.

 

thats my story and I am sticking to it.

[RoLo]

Between Ontario & Florida, I can't say that I ever noticed 'line-shyness' by largemouth bass.

I'm not saying that bass aren't shy, because they're real duds at social events

 

Roger

[Trailer]

everyone speaks of line and such but the coathanger of an Arig disproves it somewhat.

 

the fact that the Arig works better the clearer the water makes the line thoery even more blown up.

 

thats my story and I am sticking to it.

That's what I keep thinking. Does anyone have any knowledge of what colors are visible at different depths? This may not be helpful looking at it from our eyes capability, but perhaps there is some scientific evidence of how the rods and cones in a bass' eyes operate and which component (rods or cones) are prevalent over the other.

[ced]

This is one of those things like scent usage that no one has really done a good experiment on (that I'm aware of), it's all useless anecdotal information.

 

In some of our minds, especially those of us who fish clear water or sight fish, the less visible the line to our eyes the better. Of course this might not matter one bit, as most fish depend on their detection of vibrations and displacement of water over their sense of sight. I think it's safe to say what we see is not what a fish can see, they have those additional senses to accompany sight and there is no telling how their brain interprets that data.

 

With that said;

 

I'm always going to use the smallest diameter FC leader I can, while I have no evidence to support it helping get more bites, in my mind it is the best option available.

 

I spend 80% of my fishing time doing so by sight for redfish. While this is not the best data that could be available to us, fishing the same lure or fly with 20lb FC leader and 12lb FC leader doesn't seem to make a difference. There are countless days where the fish were spooky and changing from 20 to 12 didn't make a bit of difference. 20 is typically my standard for reds, and my buddy uses 15, and we don't have disproportionate bite numbers. I've never tested with braid straight to the lure or fly, but I will honestly never even try that, the advantages to FC as a leader outweigh braid (abrasion resistance, sink rate etc). Most of my bassing is in gin clear water so the same thing applies when I'm fishing them.

 

Now those are two completely different fish species, the bass being more of an ambush predator and the red being more of a hunter, but they both rely heavily on their sense of vibration and water displacement.

 

I always feel like if those fish are down to eat the line isn't going to stop them, but when they are being difficult I want the best option in my mind, even if it's only for a bit of confidence.

[ColdSVT]

I noticed an increase in getting fish to eat in the saltwater world by dowsizing the leader many times with snook, reds, trout and tarpon. Now i was in the gulf and the water was very clear. However, was it that my lure had a slightly different action with the smaller line? Or was it the fish could see the leader? I dunno. But even with live bait i noticed a difference with lighter line and smaller hooks (especially with live bait)

Have i noticed this with bass? No i havent. I have found that downsizing baits can and does have an impact in various water and pressure conditions

[mjseverson24]

That's what I keep thinking. Does anyone have any knowledge of what colors are visible at different depths? This may not be helpful looking at it from our eyes capability, but perhaps there is some scientific evidence of how the rods and cones in a bass' eyes operate and which component (rods or cones) are prevalent over the other.

There is information out there that describes what colors get filtered out of water and at what depths, also different minerals in water filter out certain colors differently. that being said the color that is filtered out does not become transparent if turns some shade of gray depending on the original color.  I dont think many people on here argue that for moving presentations like the A-rig spinnerbaits and crankbaits line color will make much of a difference, it is the slow bottom contact or finesse like presentations where the more invisible lines shine and have the greater opportunity to impact the outcome. 

 

Mitch

[Trailer]

True. The "reaction" strike would be less dependent on the type of line. What about multicolored line? Would different colors filter out different rates maybe breaking up the outline of the line? This is a great subject judging by all the different responses and disciplines in fishing.

[A-Rob]

I think they can be if fishing clear water. I fish mainly grass and pads so I may get away with it though.

I did find going to heavy on my worm rod line decreased my bites. I figure that was either bc the bass could see it or the action of the lure was killed by such heavy line.

I've never needed a leader on my spinning rod with 10-15# braided line with largemouths.

[Bass Menace]

I reckon the biggest problem I have with tying a leader is that instead of having one knot, I now have two. That drops my confidence level somewhat. 

 

I bought some Suffix braid yesterday but they only had hi-vis yellow in the 30lb range, I was going to ask this very question. I am going to fish it without a leader and see what I can conjure.  

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

I reckon the biggest problem I have with tying a leader is that instead of having one knot, I now have two. That drops my confidence level somewhat. 

 

I bought some Suffix braid yesterday but they only had hi-vis yellow in the 30lb range, I was going to ask this very question. I am going to fish it without a leader and see what I can conjure.

Conjure yourself a marker black brown green and color 4 feet or so of the line to the knot.