Let's Talk Structure...

[Loop_Dad]

Get yourself the book, "Spoonplugging" by Elwood "Buck" Perry. Study it. He first coined the phrase structure fishing and goes into it in great detail. We all owe a great deal to Mr. Perry and his teachings. It is why fishing is where it is today.

 

Just ordered one. Can't wait to read this!

[CDMeyer]

My favorite structure spot, actually never produces big fish but what it is, is a island point that comes out and has a sand bottom that leads to the main Lake channel which is all muck.  The spot that does produce for me is a spot that is a sandy rocky bottom.  It is a "peninsula".  On the south side it is extremely shallow and is stumpy muck and did I mention shallow.  The north side is deep and mucky but the whole Lack is so it does not matter there.  The west side or the point  is the same as the North.  This is very easy to target the structure in the peninsula and around the North and west sides.

[Chris186]

My favorite structure spot used to be a long point that went from 2-12 ft and was covered with chunk rock and hydrilla. One weekend we had 34lbs off that point. The very next weekend in a tourney we had 28lbs from it, and something huge got away. 3 weeks after that, the town killed the weeds in the lake and it has never been the same.

[RoLo]

SEMANTICS

The definition of words is not carved in stone, in fact semantics undergoes constant evolution.

When the misspelling, mispronunciation or misuse of a word exceeds the maximum threshold,

lexicographers move the original version backward in hierarchy, and replace it with the vernacular.

The word 'vehicle' is a great example of rampant mispronunciation. The correct pronunciation

is 'VEE-ikel' with a silent "H", but it's only a matter of time when it will be forcibly changed to "vee-HICK-el".

Does this mean that "Ventricle" will eventually become 'ven-TRICKLE' 

and that "---------" will ultimately be called "Tess-TICKLES"? (let's hope not)

 

STRUCTURE

I bought Buck Perry's book entitled "Spoonplugging", hot off the press. Like everyone else,

I too was excited by the concept of "structure fishing", but learning is an ongoing process that never stands still.

For instance, Perry's daily migration theory from deep-water to shallow-water & back, has been

repeatedly debunked by telemetric field tracking. Enamored with the concept of 'structure fishing',

anglers took the word 'structure' out of context and maligned the original definition By the late 70s,

fishermen were referring to water clarity mergers (mud-lines) as "structure", and Fishing Facts Magazine

published an article referring to the "oxycline' as structure. That's all fine and dandy, but when you give a word

the keys to the city, you destroy its identity. There's no magic in a word and no magic in 'structure',

the only place we might find magic is between our ears. Ever since "structure" became a household word,

I began to shy away from it, and now tend to replace it with words like Contour (terrestrial configuration)

or Cover (weedy, woody or rocky), which removes any mystery and paints a nice clear picture.

 

Roger

[A-Jay]

 

 

STRUCTURE

 

when you give any word the keys to the city, you destroy that word's specificity and identity. There is no magic in a word, and there is no magic in 'structure',

the only magic is what lies between our ears. Ever since the word "structure" became a household round-robin, you'll notice I very rarely use that word,

electing to use Contour (terrestrial configuration) and Cover (weedy, woody or rocky), which removes any mystery and paints a nice clear picture.

 

Roger

 

Very Nice Roger.

 

And there's the widely misused term "visible structure" (when referring to shore line cover, submerged logs and weed lines etc.) .

 

I'm hoping to someday find the Extra-terrestrial Configuration on my home lake.

 

A-Jay

[pbrussell]

A lot of talking goes on about what structure is and what is isn't. Not many talk about how to find structure. Wonder why that is 

[Catt]

A lot of talking goes on about what structure is and what is isn't. Not many talk about how to find structure. Wonder why that is

Guess ya aint read any of my threads

[Todd2]

For instance, George's daily migration theory from deep-water to shallow-water & back, has been

repeatedly debunked by telemetric field tracking.

Roger

Roger, what studies are you referring to? I'd like to read more about them. I've read some John Hope material and that makes me want to fish at night more this year.

[RoLo]

Buck Perry's book entitled "Spoonplugging" was published in the mid-60s, an era that preceded

sophisticated radio-tracking. To my knowledge, the first publicized telemetry studies on largemouth bass

were conducted in the late 70s by the In-Fisherman staff. Since that time, there have been dozens, actually scores

of radio-tracking studies. I'm not aware of a single telemetric study confirming the existence of daily bass migration,

not even lateral daily movement within the same depth (seasonal movement? YES). 

I shipped you an excerpt from my LMB file, written by Ralph Mann regarding radio-tracking as it relates to Buck Perry.

 

Roger

[Catt]

Depending on the size of the body of water there are 2 distinct "groups" of bass. One group stays offshore and one group stays near shore.

If we look at the length of time required for all bass to move to and from spawning areas including pre-spawn, spawn, post-spawn and back to summer we see a time frame of 4-5 months.

As for the telemetry studies one has to ask what was the percentage of the population that tracked?

I know this is not "scientific" but I have graphed what I considered feeding areas with down/side imaging and saw no fish at all only to do it again hours later and find fish. Could some one explain?

[WRB]

The late Bill Murphy mentions biologist Mike Lembeck tracking studies back in the 70's and the late Homer Circle wrote an article called "Where are the bass" and quotes Mikes studies. Go online and read Mike Lembecks studies that support bass migration suspended in deep water and move to shallower water to feed when oportunity arises.

In deep clear water structure lakes threadfin shad follow and feed on phytoplankton that rises near the surface during the bright sun, then the shad move to hide in brush or whatever cover nearby during low light or at night.

Bass and other predator fish like trout feed on shad, follow the bait away from cover and back to cover on a daily bases. Both the shad and trout become a prey source for bass. It's common to meter bass suspended off shore a few hundred yards from brushy areas in shallower water and catch those bass as the sun sets when they move into the brush.

As Catt has tried to share, bass love to hold near humps that offer shallower water and deep water close by, perfect places for bass to feed on migrating baitfish without the need to move a few hundred yards.

Tom

[Loop_Dad]

I've just received the Buck Perry's book and started reading. I like how he explains in very direct way.

 

I came here to to say that I'm loving this book. Didn't realize his theory has been disputed(?) by some.

[papajoe222]

I fish mainly natural lakes and the best structure I always look for is close to deep water and has some form of irregularity on it.  Sometimes it's just a bottom transition (change in bottom content like muck to sand), but more often it's a change in the contour itself.  If it has both, I get a woody.

[Todd2]

Mike Lembecks studies that support bass migration suspended in deep water and move to shallower water to feed when oportunity arises.

Tom

Sounds very similar to John Hope's research.

[Catt]

I've just received the Buck Perry's book and started reading. I like how he explains in very direct way.

I came here to to say that I'm loving this book. Didn't realize his theory has been disputed(?) by some.

Disputed not disproven!

[pbrussell]

Guess ya aint read any of my threads

I have 

[RoLo]

I know this is not "scientific" but I have graphed what I considered feeding areas with down/side imaging and saw no fish at all only to do it again hours later and find fish. Could some one explain?

 

Tom, I believe there's a distinction between Migration and Movement.

Generally speaking, a 'migration' is a change in location from one home range to another home range,

while a 'movement' is simply a locational shift within the same home range.

As you know, radio-tracking results are typically littered with a web-like network of home-range tracking.

On the other hand, I've never heard of any telemetric study that suggested Daily Migration

in which bass shuttled from deep-water to shallow water, then back to deep-water.

 

Oddly enough, most radio studies usually reveal a couple nomadic bass that undergo a long, unexplainable migration,

sometimes crossing the entire body of water (no one knows why). In every case though, the renegade bass will migrate laterally

to maintain a relatively stable distance from the water surface. This stands to reason as it dovetails with the 'suspension theory'

and also because fish with a swim bladder have to re-balance every time they undergo meaningful depth change 

(If they remain at that depth for any length of time). 

 

Roger

[roadwarrior]

Geez....

 

Rocket science!

[WRB]

Roger LMB can't go from being in deep in deep water to shallow water on a daily basis is true due there their swim bladder expansion can only adjust to 1 atmosphere in a 24 hour period. The bass suspend over deep water down about 30 feet, then " move" to shallower locations in about 10 feet of water and return back out to their deeper water holding areas more than ounce a day.

There isn't mass migration of bass moving long distances every day, the do this in seasonal steps. For example nearly all the LMB are in deep water during the winter or cold water period, then nearly all the LMB migrate or move up in the water column as it warms town in shallow water.

I have witnessed very large schools of smallmouth bass move across deep clear water at Crow lake in Canada during the late afternoon into shallower water to feed. Also watched the same type of movements with large schools LMB on lake Havasu move across the lake one side to the other, about a mile. These bass are not down deep, they are about 5' to 10' down crossing water well over 100' deep.

The difination of bass migration could be better defined as movements, however Buck Perry choose to call the movements migrations.

Tom

[Loop_Dad]

Any book for river / delta bass movements or migrations?  I fish California Delta area and looking for something I can apply there.

[Catt]

The word "migration" used by Mr. Perry was a poor choice of words and because of this poor choice of words many people use these telemetry studies to disprove his theory. Instead of letting go of what was nothing more than a poor choice of words they say the theroy is antiquated and no longer fits todays understanding.

Due to Political Correctness older translations of many words have come under revisionism, revisionism is an aspect of cultural dissemination of misinformation.

Depth finder has become fish finder, I'm sorry but a fish finder is what's tied to the end of my rod!

In its purest form "structure" is those permanent topographical differences within a body of water.

Question: are bass predators?

Yes we believe they are!

When a predator is hungry it hunts!

It does not have "migrate"!

But it does move from its home to an area with a sufficient food source.

How far does it move?

As far as necessary to find that food source!

[WRB]

The word "migration" used by Mr. Perry was a poor choice of words and because of this poor choice of words many people use these telemetry studies to disprove his theory. Instead of letting go of what was nothing more than a poor choice of words they say the theroy is antiquated and no longer fits todays understanding.

Due to Political Correctness older translations of many words have come under revisionism, revisionism is an aspect of cultural dissemination of misinformation.

Depth finder has become fish finder, I'm sorry but a fish finder is what's tied to the end of my rod!

In its purest form "structure" is those permanent topographical differences within a body of water.

Question: are bass predators?

Yes we believe they are!

When a predator is hungry it hunts!

It does not have "migrate"!

But it does move from its home to an area with a sufficient food source.

How far does it move?

As far as necessary to find that food source!

Good reply Catt, couldn't agree more!

Tom

[Catt]

I would like to publicly apologize to Roger (Rolo) for the above post!

It was never my intention to lead anyone into thinking Roger was trying to disprove Mr. Perry. There is probable no one here whose opinion I value more than Roger's.

Please do not forsake this discussion; your insight is far too valuable.

Roger, I'm truly sorry and please accept my humble apology!

Tommy (Catt) Thibodeaux

[RoLo]

I would like to publicly apologize to Roger (Rolo) for the above post!

It was never my intention to lead anyone into thinking Roger was trying to disprove Mr. Perry. There is probable no one here whose opinion I value more than Roger's.

Please do not forsake this discussion; your insight is far too valuable.

Roger, I'm truly sorry and please accept my humble apology!

Tommy (Catt) Thibodeaux

 

Frankly Tom, I'm a little embarrassed because I see no need for any apology, where acceptance is a foregone conclusion.

You and I both joined the forum in 2005, and since that time you've always been a good friend

and someone who puts human spirit even before his own ego. I know how closely you covet the teachings

of Elwood "Buck" Perry, so maybe it's me who owes you an apology for not being more tactful.

 

Just for the fun of it, let's look at the vast differences in our fishing exposure:

 §  You fish primarily in manmade impoundments

 §  I fish primarily in natural lakes. 

 §  You routinely catch bass in 12 to 17 ft of water

 §  I routinely catch bass in 2 to 6 ft of water (my favorite lake is only 9 feet deep)

 §  'Cover' in your lakes:    Weeds, Stumps, Rocks, Manmade Structure (culverts, roadbeds, barns, gravestones, etc.)

 §  'Cover' in our lakes:      Weeds                                     (No stumps, No rocks, No manmade structure)

 

In spite of the vast differences in our fishing exposure, you and I see eye-to-eye

on the overwhelming majority of fishing techniques, which to me is pretty remarkable  

 

Roger

[WRB]

Roger, couldn't see the forest from the trees until you pointed out movement verses migration.  Sometimes it takes a diiferent few point to see things clearly. 

Hope the upcoming season is enjoyable and good fishing.

Tom