Spawn "ethics"

[Bluebasser86]

Not many of our lakes are even clear enough to see bedding fish in the spring. I've done it a couple times in tournaments on Table Rock and other clear water lakes but it's often easier to target fish that haven't moved up yet or have already finished spawning. In very few instances can I remember a spawning bass being the slam dunk easy catch that they're so often reported to be. More often than not, I'll end up spending 10-30 minutes minutes working a single fish before I get it to bite, and sometimes it may not bite at all. I try to avoid doing it if possible though. 

[KyakR]

Bed fishing is the number 1 reason Florida will never produce a world record bass, no closed sanctuary water and the use of live shiner fishing during the spawn. Giant bass are most venerable on beds during the spawn, 99% of these bass are caught during the pre spawn to spawning period everywhere. C&R works only if the bass is handled properly and that doesn't happen often when it's a near record or PB size bass.

Does bed fishing harm a fishery? It can on trophy bass lakes.

Tom

It's true, I think, that fishing the spawn might not really impact the overall health of a lake. But I also think there's a reason big bass get big: they're smart, whether through genetics, experience ( this is also a great topic!) etc. I did try fishing for bedding bass some years ago, but I decided it just wasn't worth it. It felt like fighting a champion with arms tied in back and me with a bow. Instead I greatly enjoy watching them!

[Catt]

WRB, please explain to me how catching a bass off a nest stops it from growing?

There is plenty of research that supports both sides but the most compelling is on the side of it does not effect the spawn.

[J Francho]

I think his point is that large females are suffer greater mortality/harvest when fished during the spawn.  I don't think he's arguing that bed fishing affects the spawn, but that it diminishes the number of healthy trophy fish in the lake. 

[A-Jay]

I think his point is that large females are suffer greater mortality/harvest when fished during the spawn.  I don't think he's arguing that bed fishing affects the spawn, but that it diminishes the number of healthy trophy fish in the lake. 

X2 ~

 

It's been mentioned a couple of times in this thread how during this phase many anglers feel that the largest fish become more "vulnerable".

 

 Imagine if you will, what if these fish spawned at a depth or in a local that was the same as where they spend the rest of the year.  Would the number of these fish caught be less ?

 

 My contention would be yes, most definitely.  And I'm not saying whether I know for sure how this affects reproduction rates or fish mortality, but if they're not caught at all, it's hard to think there would be any harm done.

 

A-Jay

[Catt]

It is assumed!

That the female caught will die

That this female would have been a trophy

Yes the odds go up but the percentage is still small when compaired to the number of females that do not die or will never be of trophy.

[J Francho]

Well, certainly - an 8 lb. released in to the lake stands a much better chance than one released into Crisco.

[Catt]

There are few experts more capable of unlocking the mysteries involved with the spawning ritual & debunking the myths than Ken Cook.

The following is from an article by Tim Tucker, Get A Lock On The Spawn.

Conventional knowledge indicates that the male bass builds the nest, fans it out, & guards it (zealously). Generally, a good male that is aggressive & active will attract more than one female to his nest & spawn with each of them. Along with that, an active female will spawn a number of times & in most cases, in a number of different males' nest. The male sits in one spot & waits for more females to come by. I think that is sort of a hedge (on the part of the female) against an infertile male spoiling the hatch of a good fertile female. So she spreads her eggs around & he spreads his fertility around. That ensures a higher success rate for that spawn.

It is this sporadic purging of eggs & the ability to spawn with different males on serveral nest that keeps the annual spring bedding season from being severly impacted by large tournaments. Texas Parks & Wildlife Department biologist Clarence Bowling says studies have shown that a female (when handled properly) will simply locate a bed & a available male in the area where she is released & complete spawning

[boostr]

Aaaaaand que the 70s XXX music

[RoLo]

There are few experts more capable of unlocking the mysteries involved with the spawning ritual & debunking the myths than Ken Cook.

The following is from an article by Tim Tucker, Get A Lock On The Spawn.

Conventional knowledge indicates that the male bass builds the nest, fans it out, & guards it (zealously). Generally, a good male that is aggressive & active will attract more than one female to his nest & spawn with each of them. Along with that, an active female will spawn a number of times & in most cases, in a number of different males' nest. The male sits in one spot & waits for more females to come by. I think that is sort of a hedge (on the part of the female) against an infertile male spoiling the hatch of a good fertile female. So she spreads her eggs around & he spreads his fertility around. That ensures a higher success rate for that spawn.

It is this sporadic purging of eggs & the ability to spawn with different males on serveral nest that keeps the annual spring bedding season from being severly impacted by large tournaments. Texas Parks & Wildlife Department biologist Clarence Bowling says studies have shown that a female (when handled properly) will simply locate a bed & a available male in the area where she is released & complete spawning

 

Lake Kissimmee, Lake Okeechobee and Lake Tohopekaliga (Lake Toho) have always enjoyed a year-round open season

allowing artificial lures and natural bait. Nevertheless, in 2001 Lake Toho set and still holds the all-time B.A.S.S. stringer record,

heavier than any one-day B.A.S.S. stringer ever boated in California or Texas. More importantly, Lake Kissimmee

and Lake Okeechobee are stupendous trophy factories that are both producing more double-digit bass today

than they did in the so-called 'good old days'. In 2012, Ish Monroe won the 4-day Elite on the Big 'O' with 108-5.

In spite of being strictly a catch-&-release fishery, the same cannot be said of the Stick Marsh.

 

Roger

[CWB]

In smaller clear water natural lakes it can have an effect. You can cruise the bank and see just about every bed made. Bad thing is they are pretty hard to catch. I've seen guys mark a bed with a stick then come back and toss a live bait in it and pull out both the male and female. Then they move on to the next bed. A limit of big females are always kept and a stringer picture taken at the ramp. Fish then thrown into a cooler. Turns my stomach. I know... It's perfectly legal but...

[RoLo]

>> In smaller clear water natural lakes it can have an effect. You can cruise the bank and see just about every bed made.
      Yes, you'll see lots of bed sites and you'll catch lots of bucks, but angler catch-rates for 'cow bass' on the bed are embarrassingly low.

 

>> Bad thing is they are pretty hard to catch.
     Well actually, that's the good thing.
     Though my wife and I practice C & R, we no longer sight-fish. We didn't stop sight-fishing because we're so noble,

     but realized that we can boat those same cows far more effectively during the pre-spawn and post-spawn seasons.

 

         Roger

[FD.]

1.  My adht will not allow me to sight fish for bedding fish.  I do fish shallow in the spring just like I do in the summer, fall and winter.

 

2.  With the frequent cold front and ever changing weather conditions during the spawn season, the likely hood of a hard spawn with good weather on a tournament weekend is not good.

 

3.  If the FWC closed fishing during the spawn we could only fish from June to November.

 

 

Tournaments on Toho and Kissimmee have taken 5 lb averages to even sniff the money over the last few years.  I don't think there is any shortage of monster fish.

[Catt]

Double digit bass caught off nest: 0

Double digit bass caught during pre-spawn: 8

Double digit bass caught the rest of the year: 17

Don't bed fish either!

[Texas bassman]

How bout catching pigs in the bluegill spawn? Just as fun

[WRB]

WRB, please explain to me how catching a bass off a nest stops it from growing?

There is plenty of research that supports both sides but the most compelling is on the side of it does not effect the spawn.

I was discussing trophy size female bass being caught, put into a livewell and mishandled or over stressed and the bass either dies or looses the eggs for the years spawn.

Understanding the difference between a lake that has a stable, sustainable adult bass population verses a lake with marginal bass populations is important when discussing affects of over harvesting big female bass.

Smaller trophy bass lakes need a few spawning sanctuary areas off limits to fishing to sustain a good big bass population. Larger lakes or lakes with light fishing pressure that have spawning areas that see a minimum of bass harvest during the spawn are not affected by bed fishing.

Tom

[RoLo]

I was discussing trophy size female bass being caught, put into a livewell and mishandled or over stressed and the bass either dies or looses the eggs for the years spawn.

Understanding the difference between a lake that has a stable, sustainable adult bass population verses a lake with marginal bass populations is important when discussing affects of over harvesting big female bass.

Smaller trophy bass lakes need a few spawning sanctuary areas off limits to fishing to sustain a good big bass population. Larger lakes or lakes with light fishing pressure that have spawning areas that see a minimum of bass harvest during the spawn are not affected by bed fishing.

Tom

 

It's possible, but I've never heard that stressing the female can be lethal to the roe (nature usually favors the health of the embyro over the mother)

On the other hand, it's well-known that cow bass develop more roe than they need and more than they'll deposit in one spawning cycle.

This is what spawns the rumors we hear every year about ripe bass caught in midsummer (simply undeposited roe). 

 

It goes without saying, lakes with inadequate bedding flats are more vulnerable to overharvest then lakes with a wealth of sand substrate

and wind-protected shallows. It's been said that 10% of the anglers catch 90% of the fish, but it's not likely that 10 percent

would target a lake with a marginal bass population.

 

Roger

[Catt]

Bed fishing is the number 1 reason Florida will never produce a world record bass, no closed sanctuary water and the use of live shiner fishing during the spawn. Giant bass are most venerable on beds during the spawn, 99% of these bass are caught during the pre spawn to spawning period everywhere. C&R works only if the bass is handled properly and that doesn't happen often when it's a near record or PB size bass.

Does bed fishing harm a fishery? It can on trophy bass lakes.

Tom

Florida is incapable of producing a world record bass simply because they allow bed fishing?

[WRB]

The weekend angler that catches their personal best bass will more than likely keep it, few actually release them. The weekend tournament bass club angler never releases a big bass until after it has been weighed in.

Bragging rights creates an atmosphere of showing off the big bass to friends and photographing the bass several times. Big female bass kept in a livewell for several hours have low percentage of survival, for sake of argument more than 30% do not survive. The problem is very low population of big bass exist in every bass waterway, compared to the general bass population.

Successful spawning recruitment is dependant more on stable water levels and weather during the egg incubation period than from egg eating predators like carp, salamanders, bluegill, green sunfish, crappie, crayfish, chubs, minnows, etc. Over harvesting the general population of mid size adult female bass would be rare and these are the bass that sustain a fishery.

Tom

[WRB]

Florida is incapable of producing a world record bass simply because they allow bed fishing?

Bed fishing with live shiners is a big part of the Florida bass guide business, the bed fishing pressure is intense.

Tom

[Bankbeater]

Is this the same for heavily fished lakes that have a lot of pressure from anglers?  I don't necessarily target bedding bass, but if I find a one I will throw a jig at it. I have seen many bass that will ignore the bait but will continue to chase off bluegill and other fish that come close to it.

[SENKOSAM]

I suppose it could depend on the water. If smaller bass are the average size caught in large numbers, then a few ruined nests may help over the long run. More important is the population of egg eating fish and any species that eats bass. Even if you legally kept a male guarding a nest, it may not make a difference if there is an overpopulation of sunfish and white perch or tiger musky. Future populations of bass are already threatened without any angler affect.

 

I don't ever target bedding bass much less keep bass because of my deep respect for the species. Just me.

[Mainebass1984]

Very interesting to hear all the different OPINIONS.

 

Personally I don't fish for largemouth on beds. I think its easier to catch the fish that are about to spawn or have just moved off beds. I do enjoy smallmouth bed fishing. It is the only time I really sight fish. When I go smallmouth bed fishing I am usually taking my mom, dad, niece or a friend that fishes a couple times a year. They have a blast watching fish hit their lure and being able to catch significant numbers of fish.

[RoLo]

Bed fishing with live shiners is a big part of the Florida bass guide business, the bed fishing pressure is intense.

Tom

 

I'll try again.

 

The Big K and Big O have always enjoyed a year-round bass season, and have always allowed live bait.

In spite of that fact, both waters are producing more trophy-class bass today than any time in memory.

It's a mistake to compare specimens in their native habitat with non-native transplants, because a species

is most prolific within its natural range, where pruning a renewable resource lends to robust growth.

 

Florida-strain bass are indigenous to Florida, a subspecies provided by Big Mama to endure the rigors

of perennially high water temperatures. Although California has similarly high water temperatures,

Florida-strain bass are not indigenous to California (you can't fool Mother Nature, only for awhile).

Biologists call it 'waning genetic vigor'. Maintaining a non-native species typically requires TLC

and nursemaiding that's not needed within its natural range.

 

Spotted bass provide another example of same.

Lewis Smith Lake, Alabama held the world-record Spotted Bass, a 8-lb 15-oz brute.

Smith Lake gifted Lake Perris, California with spotted bass transplants, and California subsequently broke

the native spotted bass record. Smith Lake today is still an outstanding fish factory for spotted bass, 

and largemouth bass. Sadly, due to waning genetic vigor, you would be hard pressed today

to catch a single spotted bass of any size from Lake Perris, California.

 

Roger

[WRB]

I'll try again.

 

The Big K and Big O have always enjoyed a year-round bass season, and have always allowed live bait.

In spite of that fact, both waters are producing more trophy-class bass today than any time in memory.

It's a mistake to compare specimens in their native habitat to non-native transplants,

because a species is most prolific within its natural range.

 

Florida-strain bass are indigenous to Florida, a subspecies provided by Big Mama to endure the rigors

of perennially high water temperatures. Although California has similarly high water temperatures,

Florida-strain bass are not indigenous to California (you can't fool Mother Nature, only for awhile).

Biologists call it 'waning genetic vigor'. Maintaining a non-native species typically requires TLC

and nursemaiding, which is not necessary within its natural range.

 

Spotted bass provide another example of same.

Lewis Smith Lake, Alabama held the world-record for Spotted Bass at 8-lb 15-oz.

Smith Lake gifted Lake Perris, California with spotted bass transplants, and California subsequently broke

the native spotted bass record. Lewis Smith today is still an outstanding fish factory for both

spotted bass and largemouth bass. However, due to waning genetic vigor, you'd be hard pressed today

to catch a single spotted bass of any size from Lake Perris, California.

 

Roger

Actually the lake Perris Sotted bass came from Friant Dam, Merced river in CA that were gifted from Alabama back in 1903. The spotted bass population collasped due in part to extreme fishing pressure, introduction of red ear sunfish and competing Florida largemouth bass population, that today is doing very well, 18 lber caught last spring. Florida LMB have been in CA over 50 years, spotted bass and NLMB over100 years, no bass are native west of the Rocky Mountains.

CA's tiny deep structured trophy bass lakes have zero bass population management outside of fishing regulations state wide for 5 bass limits with 12" minimum length. A few lakes have slot and 3 bass limits based on local requests from fishing organizations, need to lobby our fishery people to reduce fishing pressure.

Keep in mind the initial FLMB came from Cypress Gardens FL back in 1959, all other FLMB planted in CA lakes came from those initial transplanted bass.

Nearly every lake that received the FLMB from Upper Otay in San Diego had a robust population of northern strain largemouth bass prior to introducing the Florida strain. The NLMB and FLMB integrate quickly and this impacts the gene pool, not loss of pure vigor, it's loss of pure genes.

The bass in CA have the option of going into deep water in our drinking water storage reservoirs where water temps tend to be near 70 degrees for over 9 months, this factor lengthens the FLMB life spand to nearly 15 years, longer growing period than in their native Florida waters.