Behavioral Differences Between Bass Species

[WRB]

Discussed some differences between NLMB and FLMB sharing the same lakes. The next is the integrate, a combination of FLMB and NLMB or F1. The F1 is the first generation integrate where a male NLMB and pure FLMB spawn. The F1 growth potention is similar to pure FLMB, 20+ lbs, however is more aggressive, these are the giant bass that make up most of California's record list and the reason those records are aging. F1's maybe a memory today, very rare bass.

The northern (Kentucy) spotted bass vs the southern (Alabama) spotted bass are similar to comparing FLMB and NLMB, 2 different species. Like the LMB, the Northern spot grows about half as big as it's cousin the southern spot, however both are very aggressive feeders, the easiest of all bass to catch. The spots seem to have no fear when focused on feeding. Spots tend to bite their prey and have teeth to hold it, this means they use the front of their mouth, where LMB use the back of the mouth more often. A spot will bite prey to injure it, then bite agian to turn the prey around to swallow it. A pecking type bite often confused with a bluegill.

If you have spots where you fish, you can hesitate on hook sets, the spot strikes more than ounce!

Smallmouth have similar striking traits of the Spotted bass, no teeth and tend to be a little more wary, somewhere between a LMB and the spot. Smallies and Alambama spots grow about the same size; records in the 10 to 11 lb range. Both spots and smallies prefer more open water areas and some current if available.

Tom

[Brian Needham]

Brian I think we are on the same book here, we know certain things because of science and we know certain things from time spent on the water and personally that's where I want to be..

 

I do believe you are correct, we may come from different angles but I think we wind up at the same place.

 

Indeed, the only "aquarium" I am worried about is my livewell! HA!

 

[Catt]

Confirmation bias

[SENKOSAM]

Nice topic and a much friendlier and civil discussion than one I started months ago and was reamed by a few (minus mods doing their job and even threatened by one). I congratulate everyone!!! 

 

Reflecting on what's been stated, some things have either been left out or touched on briefly without emphasis. Fishing, from basic to advanced levels, must include bass factors and human factors that can not be ignored and the most important word of all, variables, pretty much includes them.

 

Science and Bassmaster magazine has touched on bass factors such as habitat types, fish behavior, diet, anatomy, etc. and from the latter source, at times mixes in misinformation when selling lures and suggests vague ideas, suggestions and reasons as it concerns outings, neither of which are scientific in the least! (It's kind of like watching Bill Dance on TV! lol)  But the human variable can never be ignored as the fly in the ointment of fact, especially as it concerns scientific fact vs. opinion based on incomplete facts, wishful thinking, generalizations and superstition.

 

Bass anglers first off are affected by prejudice, the best anglers less so. Have you ever fished a lure you don't have confidence in (even though a B.A.S.S.pro used it to win megabucks), never caught fish on it consistently and then stored it away indefinitely for posterity? Lures that produce less than others may have real value, but today's goal of many for instant gratification coupled with multiple disappointments, skew our evaluation of many lures and presentations that may produce great catches. Not knowing what to use, when or where, affects the catches of great anglers as well as lesser anglers. Knowing bass behavior may help, but it will never be foolproof because of human fallibility starting with prejudice and ignorance induced by inexperience and an inflexible mindset.

 

We say bass are creatures of habit but what about humans? How many of you fall into the same bad habits of using only one or a few lures and presentations in fewer cover/ structure types and depths than you should, especially on tough days after getting few strikes hour after hour? Somewhere in a body of water, fish are prone to being caught and other than where and how you're fishing for them, fish can't be blamed for one's poor choices based on bad habits or execution.

 

Bass may be creatures of habit, but their habits are most times dictated by a biological response to many variables, particularly  environmental. Keith Jones offered some interesting factoids, but environmental factors include too many things fish are sensitive to that bass anglers can never completely factor in. Many of you know many of them that can have a dramatic effect: water temperature and levels - rising or falling, light based on sun angle/ water clarity, depth, pH, wind - strength, speed, direction, water level - drought, flood stage, current, and on and on. Time of year/ seasonal variables make all the difference in the world!  Prey location and behavior, general fish and other wild life metabolism and activity, pre and post spawn behavior, general boating/ fishing activity, etc, must be factored in. How has science been able to have a controlled experiment to include all of those bass behavior modifiers to be able to predict what bass are up to at any one moment or time period?!!

 

Lure burn out has been mentioned, but bass memory has been studied and found to be limited in capacity and in the length of time memories are stored. Bass may remember some lures after being caught multiple times and shy away from striking them, but for how long - one year, a few years or for as long as it lives? Does the bass share that information with other bass or do all other bass in a water learn from it's demise, spreading the word that, that lure is deadly / avoid it any like it at all costs!!!? Or does human prejudice, including that spread by word of mouth, kill the lure's popularity for a body of water under the category of lure burn out? What about other waters? If the lure does poorly somewhere else, was it because fish were exposed to it too often, a flying fish spread the word between waters or the lure, like most others, has a time and place?

 

Granted, some lures do great the first year, but the reasons why may have nothing to do with their overwhelming fish appeal or novelty, but more to do with fishing variables that put anglers more often in the right place, using one of many lures and presentations to clobber bass day after day in a particular year. To ignore all of the variables that make lures successful prompts one to believe in fairy tales as it concerns certain lures and one's abilities. Variables account for a lure's success, many of which an angler will never know the combination of.

 

So as it concerns scientific predictions of bass behavior, degrees of intelligence and whether of not a group of bass is prone to being caught, I say, the challenge of fishing is not only to catch fish, but to be amazed when we catch them at all! - science be damned (along with fishing shows)!

 

Frank

[Brian Needham]

nice Frank!

 

I contest anything that is living is a creature of habit, or at least instinct. So where would one get their habits from if it was not instinctual? Perhaps that is further if a stretch than needed.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, it is a wonder we catch anything at all. I for one find nothing better than to sit back and marvel at a fish that I catch on a "artificial" lure. to know for a split second I out witted nature, how awesome it that?   

[WRB]

Experienced bass learn from their time on the water what bass prefer on the lakes they fish and become good anglers that consistantly catch fish or they don't learn and repeat what other good anglers are doing. The 90-10 rule where 10% of the angers catch 90% of the bass hasn't changed in my life time. The fact that the top anglers catch their bass using different lures and presentations then the 90% who struggle is an interesting topic and gives us a clue regarding bass behavior. The common denominator to solving this problem is food verses bass feeding activity, the top anglers are catching active feeding bass, the unsuccessful are not.

Bass don't eat all day long and they are not laying in ambush waiting for your lure to swim by as most anglers believe. Cover enough water and you will catch bass is another mistake most anglers make. You may stumble into active bass by covering a lot of water where bass are located, this is a hit and miss technique.

If you could go directly to where the bass are located and time your fishing to when the bass are active feeding, you will consistantly catch more bass. Learning about bass behavior helps, discovering what the bass are eating and where they are located = success...as long as your presence doesn't alter the feeding activity.

Tom

[SENKOSAM]

 

...as long as your presence doesn't alter the feeding activity.

This assumes bass are feeding when they bite a lure. Many are not! If I were to watch fish reactions to the presence of a lure underwater, I'd be willing to bet the farm that many fish start out inactive, suspending off bottom, and when a lure is within striking distance or a distance close enough to be observed, a bass becomes active. This usually starts with curiosity and most often ending up with curiosity as it nibbles at or gets a lure in its mouth.

 

Great videos exist on Youtube and in a set I own produced by Glen Lau demonstrating many instances of fish slowly deciding whether to bite something (lure or live animal) and then going after it almost like in slow motion. No darting around, no jumping clear out the water with the object in its mouth, but just slowly closing in, staring at it and then inhaling it in the blink of an eye.

 

I saved an underwater video of perch being caught under the ice and the sequence was exactly like the above. The strangest thing was that the minnow hanging from a spoon was dead and stiff, yet perch came over, milled around as one became interested and started pecking at the minnow. Soon, more large perch were going after the lure, but only after it was jigged. None left the area after three were caught and then more struck!

 

So, in effect, it's not the active fish we're after most of the time (as much as we'd like), but idle fish prone to being provoked by the presence of an unknown object that pushes its buttons. It's what makes punching cover so successful!

[Brian Needham]

I thought there were 3 reasons a fish would strike a lure:

 

1. feeding

2. defensive/protective

3. reaction

 

is this flawed teaching handed down through the years?

[WRB]

I thought there were 3 reasons a fish would strike a lure:

1. feeding

2. defensive/protective

3. reaction

is this flawed teaching handed down through the years?

1& 2 there isn't a debate, bass must eat to survive and must protect their spawning site to reproduce.

3 is debatable. Fish are not like cats that we can tease into striking, I belive that is a myth.

Spent a lot of time watching bass in the wild in clear lakes and ponds. When these bass are inactive, you can drop a live crawdad,minnow, tiger salamander (water dog) on there nose and they just back away and have zero interest in striking. At the same time you see baitfish swimming around these inactive bass without any sign of fear. Within a moments notice, the baitfish run and hide, the bass start to move and become alert, now if you drop the same live critter in the water near the bass, it strikes immediately. It's easy to tease a bass looking for prey, impossible to get a reaction from a bass not interested. The direction prey enters the basses viewing area can make a big difference in getting the bass looking for prey to react to that prey, this is different then teasing, you simple discovered the right angle for the bass to commit to.

Tom

[Brian Needham]

interesting Tom, thanks.

[SENKOSAM]

 

I thought there were 3 reasons a fish would strike a lure:

 

1. feeding

2. defensive/protective

3. reaction

 

is this flawed teaching handed down through the years?

Let's get #2 out of the way first. How much time is a bass defending a nest in its lifetime? Females - none.

Feeding pertains to feeding on living real prey that a bass instinctively knows is alive via its senses.

 

The reaction sought  comes from whatever makes a bass decide to strike or react to an artificial IMO. Science and humans can only offer conjecture from their own point of view and that of the simple biological urges they associate with all predator aggression. I've watched many videos taken in the wild and a fair amount of them suggest bass are not striking a lure much of the time because of an active feeding mode. If you get a chance to watch the Homer Circle, Glen Lau video set, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

The reason bass strike artificial baits, especially those they have not been exposed to or that are totally unrealistic, go beyond man's ability to know.  I realize the above is unconventional but also an easier way to chose lures based on lure characteristics that aren't intended to look or act like any prey animal a bass normally eats.

 

Each to his own and again, even though I can't say conventional notions are wrong,  there's a good chance they are.

[Brian Needham]

perhaps I should have used the word territorial?

[coryn h. fishowl]

So there's science that proves what's appetizing to a bass?

"Hmmmm I'll bypass that fat, protein packed, spineless and scaleless little treat because I prefer the hints of maple and Bacon in that other salamander I MAY come across later..." that's a bit too much brain power attributed to them.

Simple positive reinforcement vs punishment.  Eat the slightly toxic one, or the delicious one.

[Brian Needham]

Simple positive reinforcement vs punishment.  Eat the slightly toxic one, or the delicious one.

 

reinforcement vs punishment would mean bass have a memory, correct?

 

Bob Lusk says they do not have a memory.

 

but if you wanted to say it was instintual then I could go along with that.

[SPEEDBEAD.]

Let's get #2 out of the way first. How much time is a bass defending a nest in its lifetime? Females - none.

 

I'd have to disagree with you there.

[WRB]

#2. Male bass select the bed site and protect until the fry are ready to be on their own.

The female bass select which male and bed site or sites they lay eggs. The female doesn't instantly move onto a bed to spawn or leave immediacy after laying eggs, about a 2 day period the female is very protective of the bed site area and the reason they get caught during the spawn.

There should be no debate on this set of facts.

#3. Yes I have watched the movie Big Mouth, filmed at Cypress Springs or gardens, FL. This is a no fishing area, a sanctuary similar to a large aquarium, the bass are wild, very used to seeing people that don't harm them.

Bass don't have hands, you see them make a half hearted attempt to check out the lures and instantly reject them, treble hooks and all. These bass are grouped up and active, not suspended in an inactive mood.

Great film for every bass angler to watch.

Tom

PS, watch this film and you will know why sharp hooks are important!

[SENKOSAM]

Knowing Bass, p.9

 

As the the female releases her eggs, the male emits a string of milt to fertilize the eggs. The female swims off and leaves the male to guard the nest. While the eggs develop, the male defends the nest against any mobile intruder.

The female may also lay more eggs in a different location, starting the process with another male.

Another source:

 

Normally the male Largemouth bass will find the nest for the spawning season, this nest will be made from sand and gravel, circular in shape and quite shallow, it will also normally be around twice the size of the male Largemouth bass in length. 

 

Once the nest is created the male Largemouth will guard a perimeter that is around six feet in circumference and will keep swimming around the nest until he can find a female mate, once a perfect mate is found they will swim together and the spawning take place when they both swim laterally so they can get in close contact with one another so when both fish shudder the released eggs and sperm can be released in the same place.

 

Female Largemouth actually spawn more than once in the spring period, their first spawn will be the majority of their eggs, but a second and sometimes third spawn can take place within a month of the first.

 

The male guards the eggs which only take two to four weeks to hatch and the male will also keep guard of the fry that hatch for up to two weeks when the fry will leave the nest for  good.

"You'll see bucks on the beds four or five days before the females show up," Scroggins says. "The females are in the same general area, cruising around."

Though it's hard to catch a female while she's rolling, it's now-or-never time. She will leave as soon as she finishes dropping her eggs.  (bassmaster site)

 

The act of spawning for an individual pair of bass seems to last no more than a few hours. Many times I've come across bass spawning in the morning and returned in the early afternoon to discover that the female already has left. Once she's gone (she may not dispose of all the eggs in one episode), the male remains on the nest to protect the eggs and fry from predators. He may stand guard for up to two weeks!

 

[WRB]

In deep structure lakes where I have spent the majority of my bass fishing the water is very clear with few aquatics weeds, mostly rocky with sparse wood/ brush. This is typical of SoCal bass lakes during the spawn.

The tem shallow is relative to the lake regarding how deep bed site are. Rarely will you find beds in water less than 2' , the average is closer to 4', some beds are deeper than 1o'. The very shallow beds are usually made by smaller males, the larger females tend to avoid beds less than 3' deep, preferring the deeper bed sites. One reason could be blue herons can easily catch a bass off a shallower bed.

To claim the female leaves immediately after laying egg's may be true if that female has completed all her eggs, the female usually moves somewhere between 5' to 10' away from the nest site and keeps a watch from the perimeter area. The little male stays on the nest site. A common practice with bed anglers is catch the male, and wait for the female to return, then catch her.

I have witnessed several big females laying eggs on one bed site at the same time, it's not always one pair. Most bass anglers have experience with spawning bass due to the fact they easy to observe and catch.

The time it takes for eggs to hatch depends on the water temperature the eggs are in; about 14 days in water 60 degrees, 5 days in water 67 degrees. The warmer the water the more egg eating predators are around the bed sites, thus lower success rates. Survival of the fittest!

Tom

[SENKOSAM]

 

To claim the female leaves immediately after laying egg's may be true if that female has completed all her eggs, the female usually moves somewhere between 5' to 10' away from the nest site and keeps a watch from the perimeter area. The little male stays on the nest site. A common practice with bed anglers is catch the male, and wait for the female to return,

source? 

Why would a female who has laid some eggs be any different than one who laid eggs leftover from a previous spawn?

 

I haven't read anywhere that a female will return to a nest or that they 'keep watch'.

[Brian Needham]

. A common practice with bed anglers is catch the male, and wait for the female to return, then catch her.

 

 

I have seen footage of Edwin Evers doing this in a Florida tournament

[00 mod]

Same bed.  Back to back casts.  Caught the smaller male (5lbs 1 oz) first then the female (7lbs even) next cast.

 

[SENKOSAM]

Getting back to the reasons bass strike lures, I found some interesting statements in Knowing Bass  that describe the sequence I mentioned when observing underwater videos.

 

A strong food scent can arouse even inactive bass in much the same way that an alarm clock wakes you from a deep sleep. The bass may not immediately appear to do much in response. It might not even move because most of the response is taking place within the nervous system. Heightened behaviors (increased rate of breathing, flaring of gills, shifting of eyes) indicate a bass is rearranging it's sensory priorities and mental focus.

 

 

Bass are primarily visual hunters, meaning that their eyes direct most of their strikes on prey and lures. But bass are not always in a constant state of visual alertness. They are not always actively scanning their surroundings. Sometimes they are in what might be called a mental fog. The first effect of *** food odor is to arouse the bass out that fog. It then becomes visually alert - the superb visual hunter that it is. Vibration detection in murky water or in the dark takes precedence over visual cues, but whatever the situation, a bass  will reliably maximize the use of all its senses to find food. Bass are prone to err greatly in their choice of targets. An agitated bass may abandon all caution, strking just about everything in their path - in short, anything that will fit in their oral chasm.

 

 

Bass can rush in for the kill, but frequently do not. The first contact, the analysis stage, helps bass evaluate a target before finally committing to strike and may be restricted to a mere bump with the snout or a quick nip with their lips.

[WRB]

Years ago or decades ago now, I fished a wide range of live bait for bass. Crawdads, water dogs, Canadian night crawlers, mud suckers, chubs, shiners and Threadfin shad. When bass were active, swimming around or patrolling the area, they would strike live bait immediately as soon as they detected it. The opposite was the case when the bass were suspended in an inactive state.

If there was a school or group of suspended bass it could take 20-30 minutes of the live bait swimming or moving around near them before one bass might wake up and take notice, swim over and strike the bait. This act of striking must set off some pheromone, the entire bass school would wake up and come over to the area of the strike, then it was wide open fishing as long as you had the live bait that started to feeding spree.

Someday someone will study the trigger mechanism of pheromones from baitfish or predator fish, it's an odor response.

Tom

[coryn h. fishowl]

reinforcement vs punishment would mean bass have a memory, correct?

 

Bob Lusk says they do not have a memory.

 

but if you wanted to say it was instintual then I could go along with that.

Given that a friend of mine had a bass in an aquarium which he trained to swim around a log twice before getting food, I'd say they do. Not to mention that bass have been shown to cease biting certain lures in a controlled environment after several nips.  They realize it isn't food and even months after, will not bite they lure once they have learned this.

[coryn h. fishowl]

 

 

Lure burn out has been mentioned, but bass memory has been studied and found to be limited in capacity and in the length of time memories are stored. Bass may remember some lures after being caught multiple times and shy away from striking them, but for how long - one year, a few years or for as long as it lives? Does the bass share that information with other bass or do all other bass in a water learn from it's demise, spreading the word that, that lure is deadly / avoid it any like it at all costs!!!? Or does human prejudice, including that spread by word of mouth, kill the lure's popularity for a body of water under the category of lure burn out? What about other waters? If the lure does poorly somewhere else, was it because fish were exposed to it too often, a flying fish spread the word between waters or the lure, like most others, has a time and place?

 

 

 

And I digress