Which Is The Bigger Feed Up.....debate Inside.

[KyakR]

I'd ask myself: when are the baitfish/forage scarcer (less competition for my lure)? When does temperature sunlight and hormone level force fish into the shallows where I can catch them most easily? And most of all the answer to the question "when are they easier to catch?" has to do with the expertise of the angler in finding them, knowing what to throw etc. For me, fall's best. But that doesn't mean the fish aren't feeding most!

[KyakR]

Oops. I meant post-spawn

[coryn h. fishowl]

Their unwillingness to ravenously devour everything in their path, (post spawn) and to feed in completely different areas than the spawning grounds could be an evolutionary adaptation to prevent the massacre of YOY bass fry.  After all, if females went on a killing spree, no genes would passed on.  Huh...interesting research topic at least.

[Catt]

Post spawn is a peroid of time when the female bass has "spawned" out and left the spawning area and is not in a feeding mood. This leave the male bass the only "catchable" sex but his job is focused on protecting the nest so if your cast in not within the nest you will be skunked!

[Brian Needham]

Post spawn is a peroid of time when the female bass has "spawned" out and left the spawning area and is not in a feeding mood. This leave the male bass the only "catchable" sex but his job is focused on protecting the nest so if your cast in not within the nest you will be skunked!

 

 

Catt , I want you to explain something to this ole boy from Arkansas.

 

I have seen you say the pre spawn patterns start before most realize it...... what conditions are you looking for: weather patterns(warming trend ?), photo period lenght, water temp, ect.?

[Catt]

Brain, it's a combination of all of the above & more!

To many articles mention water temps so they average angler sits around watching the water temp. The problem with this is the temp they are watching is surface temp, I know of no bass that lives on the surface!

What I do know is at some point during late winter while fishing deep structure the bass simply disappear. These bass first move to points of feeder creeks & just inside feeder creeks. When checking water temps wirh a probe I get readings in the mid-40s.

Another key is weather stability, 3-4 days of stable weather be it cold clear, overcast, or what ever. Unstable weather will back the fish off by atleast one breakline.

Water depth also comes into play.

North Toledo Bend is up near Arkansas while the dam is some 120 miles south. The pre-spawn starts up north first which makes no sense until you understand the north lake is shallow , murky, & warmer. The south end is deeper, clear, & colder..

The only way to know when pre-spawn starts is to be on the water

[WRB]

While I agree on most of what Catt has written on this thread, agree with pre spawn being the seasonal period the adult bass feed more than any other period, including fall. Pre spawn is the period when the adult bass move from their winter locations, the cold water winter seasonal period, to stage before spawning. The female bass may be developing eggs for months prior to pre spawn, however egg development alone doesn't signal a seasonal change. Bass movement/ location patterns in conjunction with warming water temps signal the bass are in transition from winter to pre spawn, similar to the summer to fall transition, when water cools.

In my region pre spawn starts when the water temps start to approach 55 degrees (not surface water, core water temps) and the bass have move up between 35' to 20' on major and primary secondary points. Depending on our weather, this movement starts to occurs between late Dec to early Feb in SoCal, about 4 to 8 weeks before they start cruising the spawning flats.

Post spawn females are in poor physical condition, some die, so they are not feeding heavily, they are recuperating.

Juvenile bass feed heavily during the summer period, this time is critical growth period if these bass will grow to adult size bass.

Tom

[Brian Needham]

thanks guys.......now here is the new question:

 

since temps are not the leading indicator, core water temps are........ do the core water temps warm faster or slower than the surface? we all know water holds heat, but does the water at depth "get" its heat only from the surface?

 

hmmmmmm........

[Dwight Hottle]

Surface temps always cool & warm faster because the have more exposure to heat/sun and cold air temps. The core water is insulated by the mass it sits in or is surrounded by.  The core water temps always move up or down more slowly than the surface. Our local paper publishes water temp daily from 12 fow down where the local water pickup for city water supply comes from. My surface water temps always exceed that temp up or down depending upon sunlight or cold wind/air temps. So yes the core gets its heat & cold from the surface but also the shoreline, current and wind/waves effect. The shallower the water the more effect the environment has on it because it has less insulation. 

 

That's my story & i'm sticking to it. 

[Catt]

Clear water warms faster the off colored but it loses heat faster at night. Off colored water has particals floating in it, these patricals hold heat.

The water heats from the surface down based on the fact the surface gets hit first.

Not sure what you want there!

Tom, you hit on part of but missed it

The stage at which the eggs are plays a role with the female, it increases urges to feed & spawn.

[Brian Needham]

between  Dwight, Catt and WRB, its much clearer now.

 

gonna buy a rope and thermometer

[PABASS]

Here is my question about the magical "spawn" temperature mark, in south FL does the water temps even go down to 55?  I thought I read somewhere 55-65 and this depends on location, for example in PA I could see the lower 60s would trigger spawning migration and this would make sense that in FL 62+ would trigger the same migration, no?

[slonezp]

I have caught and fileted bass, in northern IL, with eggs in them, in November, before first ice. Does egg development start before prespawn, or are these bass in prespawn 5-6 months before the spawn? Or could these be leftover from a female that never spawned?

[Brian Needham]

PABASS.......... it is my personal belief that's when the photo length period factor kicks in.

 

Much like humans with the time change. I know me, I can tell when the "fall back" of the clocks USED to happen before they changed it. I am very tired for 2-3 weeks until the "new" fall back occurs.......

 

Point is fish know this too, as it is instinct to know when the daylight hours are long enough. The eggs need certain amount sunlight to "hatch". 

 

my reasoning is here in Arkansas we can have 80 degree days for a week in Feb, but that don't mean the spawn is happening.

 

JMO, as I am learning more and more everyday about patterns and the science behind it. OR at least trying to.

[J Francho]

Fall. Bait weighs more than eggs.

[WRB]

Fall. Bait weighs more than eggs.

Prey and eggs weigh the more, pre spawn. How many record class bass have been caught in the fall....none.

Tom

[Catt]

After the first movement from deep water structure I don't pay much attention to temps. By this time I'm zoned in where they are headed & which breaklines they be using to get there. Since '72 I've followed the pre-spawn on Toledo Bend & what's fun is I can start around mid-Jan go through late April fishing pre-spawn & spawn.

[J Francho]

Prey and eggs weigh the more, pre spawn. How many record class bass have been caught in the fall....none.

Tom

 

I don't recall this being a thread about record fish, but what is the bigger "feed up."  If it's the latter, it's fall, at least for northern states that actually have a winter.  The fish are fatter.  If we're talking record size fish, then sure - spring/pre spawn is a no brainer.

[WRB]

Getting into thermal dynamics and understanding the heat transfer of conduction, convection and radiation thermal effects of heating or cooling of lake water is a complex study. Water volume, clarity play a roll; deeper water by volume requires more energy to affect heat transfer. Clear water with little or no suspended particulates to heat or cool transfer heat slower than water with particulates. The sun heats water via thermal radiation, the earth by thermal conduction, the core water column heats bad cools via thermal convection, all 3 play a roll. Streams or rivers flowing tend to mix the water temperature, this water flowing into a lake is usually similar to the lakes surface temps, unless the surface is frozen. Water coming up through the earth, springs, tend to be the same temperature as the earth the water is flowing through (about 60 degrees). Spring water cools warmer water in the summer, heats colder water in the winter.

The ideal water temps for bass is about 70 degrees, they can tolerate about 40 to 85 degrees depending on DO level.

Tom

[WRB]

Feeding and weight gain go together. Bass are cold blooded animals, their metabolism, the rate they burn calories, is controlled by water temperature. In the summer and fall the water is warmer and bass gain weight per calorie slower because the are more active burning calories chasing prey. During the pre spawn the water temps are colder, bass need less food to maintain weight, however they are driven by biological need to store the maximum amount of food so they can survive not eating during the spawn. For this reason bass are at the heavier weight and most active feeding period.

Calling the pre spawn the time bass are developing eggs is like calling the post spawn the time period before bass develop eggs for females or melt for males; pre spawn summer, fall, winter, spring. I will respectfully disagree on that theory.

Tom

[Brian Needham]

actually Francho the debate was PRE or POST spawn, though we have moved somewhat from the intial intent....

 

good info all around

[J Francho]

If those are the only choices, then pre.  But they are fatter in the fall.  The biggest fish are more catchable, as Tom (WRB) mentioned during pre and actual spawn.

[Paul Roberts]

Wow this threads all over the place. Understandable bc the subject is not simple. The deeper you look, the deeper you find things are. Science is more often about refining questions than coming up with answers.

 

I have caught and fileted bass, in northern IL, with eggs in them, in November, before first ice. Does egg development start before prespawn, or are these bass in prespawn 5-6 months before the spawn? Or could these be leftover from a female that never spawned?

Gonads begin development in the late summer and fall for spring breeders. Winter just slows that development. Inc temp acts to inc rate of development. Photoperiod plays a role as does lipid intake in final development. IT's possible to get spring spawners to come ripe in fall and is even known to happen (rarely) in the wild under certain circumstances.

[Brian Needham]

Wow this threads all over the place.

 

Paul forgive me, as you don't know me very well........this is normal everyday conversation! LOL

 

you got to go off on a few tangents to find out what the main idea REALLY was! hahahah

[Paul Roberts]

Sure is a lot of ground being furrowed here. I understand the tangents. I'm apt to say, anywhere within such a conversation concerning the nature of complex cyclical events: "We can go anywhere from here." Definitions become important. And the closer I look, the more I end up splitting hairs

 

A great time for making great catches including some big numbers IS "after the spawn" if one defines the spawn as still seeing some males shallow and guarding fry, and some (often little ones) even setting up late beds (without much of an audience often). In all but the smallest waters those bass done spawning have left the shallows and may collect on ... anything they can relate to, before vegetation kicks in and summer patterns related to it, develop. These pre-summer fish (as I call them) can collect up heavy on particular structure (or cover) pieces. I know a guy who fishes larger waters with much denser bass popns than my waters and he has had runs of 40, 50, and 60 mature bass from one such spot! If you miss such spots even by a little, or don't know specifically what to look for, you can cast to some sparsely populated water or just holding late tending males. There are some other "post-spawn" feeding opportunities that the mature bass take advantage of on the tail end of 'the spawn" when males can still be seen tending, in my, and many other, waters too.

 

But...again I call this pre-summer activity. I see post-spawn as a pretty short window when actual egg dropping is not happening anymore and males are tending eggs and then fry. Some females are still hanging about spawning areas, but getting jilted by now tending males. After this they go on to feeding, and I call this pre-summer. The word "spawn" is not needed then -even though males are still seen tending -probably the sight most anglers label "the spawn". (In fact, I've even wondered whether "post-spawn" is a real period. I put this in parentheses bc maybe/likely in larger water bodies than I frequent, transitions take longer. My questioning this may just be an artifact of the small waters I fish -the "post-spawn" females and males getting to feeding virtually right away, albeit the females low in energy at first.)

 

Such females are pretty low energy at the tail end of the "spawn". Many are still willing to spawn but most males are occupied with eggs or fry and they'll attack a still amorous female like an intruder.

 

Here's a post I made a while back describing the capture of what I see as a "post-spawn" female, in my waters:

Here's a pic of a post-spawn female that was hanging around a guarding male that wouldn't let her near. Sight fishing can tell you a lot about what's going on -why we don't catch them all. It isn't easy to make artificial food look real, or appear catchable -jiving with the given fish's energy level. This female, like most post-spawn females, would not chase so I had to drop and swim the tube just ahead of her. Too far ahead of her and no go. Too much vegetation to "kill" the bait in –no go. The swim too fast for her to commit –no go. She took a plastic craw-tube, gingerly, but I missed and then she avoided it. I finally got her on a standard tube with a perfectly timed fall and swim. Now I could see her. Imagine doing this blind, just working a shoreline! We miss a lot of potentially catchable fish. Baits that work slowly, or stay in place, have the best chance of getting bit.