Heavier Or Lighter Leader?

[michang5]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I'm looking to replace some Vicious fluoro I bought randomly at Walmart when I first started bass fishing. I have only been using it as leader for my braid, and have been losing confidence in it after losing several lures on casts.

I am confident in my knots (Palomar and Alberto) and don't think it was user error.

Main question: Many here go lighter on the fluoro (8# vs 10# braid, for example). One forum post mentioned always going heavier (12# fluoro to 10# braid). Is there an accepted standard?

Bonus question: The guy that sold me my setup recommended downsizing the leader so as to more closely match the line diameters. He didn't say why. Does anyone know what you gain?

Thank you!

[ww2farmer]

I don't know/care what every one else does, but you asked, so here is what I do:

 

Spinning gear:

 

I have 2 ML power rods with 10lb braid, they get either 6-8 lb leaders, and two M powered rods with 15lb braid that get 8,10,or 12lb leaders.

 

Casting gear:

 

I have 2 M powered fast action rods, both with 20lb braid, they get 12 or 15 lb leaders

 

I have 3 MH powered fast (or x-fast rods) with 30lb braid, they get 15,17, or 20lb leaders

 

One MH/F rod with 50lb braid that gets a 17 or 20lb leader

 

One H/F rod with 50lb braid that gets a 17 or 20lb leader

 

And my cranking rods all have 20lb braid, and they will get 10,12,or 15lb leaders.

 

I base my leader size on what type of cover I am fishing, and what the power of the rod is. It would be foolish to tie a 10lb leader to 50lb braid and use a H power rod, you'll just be breaking leaders all the time.  Don't lock your drag down tight when fishing with a leader, and if the cover allows it, back down one rod power, that will help protect the leader, and with no stretch braid as the main line, you'll still have plenty of power for setting the hook.

[SirSnookalot]

Nothing cut and dried as I fish for many different species in both freshwater and salt, both open water and heavily vegetated areas.  I do like my main line/leader "chain" to be close in strength, being a braid user I go by the apx. breaking point rather than the labeled pound test.  With the ever increasing strength of braided lines I'm in the process of respooling everything down a notch, my 20's are becoming 15 and my 15's are becoming 10.  

[einscodek]

I assume your line was breakin on the fluoro and not unraveling at the knot..

 

On my main setup, I use 25# Seaguar Tatsu as a leader for 50# braid and still get breakoffs once in a long while near the edge of the fluoro knot.. I suspect its the area which stretches when making the fluoro knots tight.

 

 

BTW I too have one of my setups on 20# braid and everytime I get bit big and they dive for the weeds I get nervous..

[michang5]

Thanks for the suggestions and use cases!

My breaks are typically right below my Alberto knot on the fluoro side. Or above my Palomar knot, opposite of my lure.

I did pick up some 12#. Invisx last night. I noticed its diameter was a tiny fraction larger than the 10# Vicious fluoro that has been causing me problems. Most indications are that it should be a better, tougher line.

I'm thinking I will pick up some 20# PowerPro Super 8 Slick, which would be 10# more than what I have tied right now.

While it seems logical to step up from

10#braid + 10#flouro

to

#20braid + 12#fluoro,

I'm having a bit of buyer's remorse over spending $20 on the 10# braid that hasn't given me any problems yet. Grr...

[Cgrinder]

You could pair 8 lb invizx with 10 lb PP. I believe that it is pretty common. No buyer's remorse that way.

Matching diameters is more important with a uni to uni knot. It matters much less with an Alberto.

[Capt.Bob]

I don't know/care what every one else does, but you asked, so here is what I do:

 

Spinning gear:

 

I have 2 ML power rods with 10lb braid, they get either 6-8 lb leaders, and two M powered rods with 15lb braid that get 8,10,or 12lb leaders.

 

Casting gear:

 

I have 2 M powered fast action rods, both with 20lb braid, they get 12 or 15 lb leaders

 

I have 3 MH powered fast (or x-fast rods) with 30lb braid, they get 15,17, or 20lb leaders

 

One MH/F rod with 50lb braid that gets a 17 or 20lb leader

 

One H/F rod with 50lb braid that gets a 17 or 20lb leader

 

And my cranking rods all have 20lb braid, and they will get 10,12,or 15lb leaders.

 

I base my leader size on what type of cover I am fishing, and what the power of the rod is. It would be foolish to tie a 10lb leader to 50lb braid and use a H power rod, you'll just be breaking leaders all the time.  Don't lock your drag down tight when fishing with a leader, and if the cover allows it, back down one rod power, that will help protect the leader, and with no stretch braid as the main line, you'll still have plenty of power for setting the hook.

WW2farmer has pretty well said it. Braid on everything, and I use my leader as my week spot, that is what I want to loose If I have to break off, my braid is always stronger than I need. Rods are are rated by Lbs. test. mono, I match my braid to the diameter of the mono rating stated on the rod, and never use a leader heavier than the rod is rated for! 

[skeletor6]

Not to be too far off-topic, but I would suggest you save a few dollars and buy some seaguar Invizx or abrazx, even Trilene 100% would be better. Vicious is exactly what the adjective entails. Since you will be using this as a leader, you will get so much out of a spool that the math speaks for itself. 

 

When I've used braid/fluoro leader combo. I always tried to match the diameter of the braid with the diameter of the Fluorocarbon. I just kept it simple that way and I didn't encounter any problems.

[Jrob78]

Why not just go straight braid or straight fluoro if you're having so much trouble?  No need to make it harder than it should be.  Just sayin....

[pbizzle]

I'm surprised that no one's said this yet, but the vicious is not the best line. When I tried it I was afraid that if I looked at it to hard it would break.

[michang5]

Thanks for everyone's suggestions!

 

I picked up some 20# PowerPro Super 8 Slick braid (hi-viz yellow) to go with 12# Invizx. I was surprised at the increased casting distance going from 10# to 20#. I would have figured a shorter cast.

 

I spent a chunk of last night trying to tie the Berkeley Braid and Triple Loop knots for fluoro-leader-to-hook. Neither is very easy. Maybe I just need to triple-check my Palomar tying.

[J Francho]

Regardless of what leader, mainline, or power rod you choose to use, always set the drag to the weakest point in the system.  I use a a rule of thumb of 1/4 to 1/3 the breaking strength.  If your main line is the weakest point, and it's 10# braid, then set your drag at 2.5-3 lbs. resistance.  You can measure it first, but you'll develop the sense to do it by feel.  Assuming your knots are strong, and all the parts are in good order, you should never break off.

[Bucky205]

I've never understood the braid to leader thing with multiple rods.  Your rod to bait connection is only as strong as it's weakest point.  50# braid to 10# leader if the knot doesn't fail will break around 10#.  I normally run braid all the way to the bait if I'm using braid.  I am old school and frugel, 90 percent of my fishing is pitching and flipping, plain old 20# Stren in Clear/Fluorescent. I flip and pitch with a 4600 C3 on a 7' Duckett, .  The 4600 will only hold between 80 and 100 yards of the Stren, but I have never had a fish come close to emptying the spool.  Where it starts to get difficult is setting up one rod for multiple uses, in that situation I would probably consider going braid to leader depending on the situation, and water clarity.

[Darren.]

February 2017! The month of old thread revivals!  

Not singling you out, @Bucky205, there have been a

few others, too  

 

For this thread, I think @J Francho's post above yours 

states braid+leader use best. Drag has a lot to do with

the success of the whole setup. When done right, a 

braid+leader connection should not fail. I've gone years

with successful connections with extreme rarity that I

ever break at the connection...

[fishnkamp]

If you end up not liking the InvizX go get a spool of PLine CXX in 8 or 10 pound test.  This is a copolymer line not a fluoro line. Palomar knots will hold well, so will other knots. 

I use Berkley Fireline in 14 pound test on all of my spinning rods. I use a double uni knot to attach my braid and leader material.   I have not had a problem on one of my spinning reels since Craig Powers, an FLW pro, showed me this arrangement. By the way, P Line CXX moss green line is the best line in their lineup for this use. 10 pound line breaks around 23 pounds, so the 8 pound is plenty strong also.

 

I use Suffix 832, Spiderwire Stealth and Power Pro Spectra braid on many of my baitcasters. I use leaders on may or these as well. Again I rely on a 4 foot leader made up of he CXX line. Plus the CXX, a 300 yard spool costs $8 or $9 and will last you forever.

Learn to tie the double Uni knot, the palomar knot and the Trilene knot. Those are the knots I use most often. The knot trouble you are having could have a lot to do with fluoro line. make sure to spit on or wetten the knot as you tighten it. Fluoro lines can burn and weaken your knot. 

[Bucky205]

15 hours ago, Darren. said:

February 2017! The month of old thread revivals!  

Not singling you out, @Bucky205, there have been a

few others, too  

 

For this thread, I think @J Francho's post above yours 

states braid+leader use best. Drag has a lot to do with

the success of the whole setup. When done right, a 

braid+leader connection should not fail. I've gone years

with successful connections with extreme rarity that I

ever break at the connection...

I must be looking at something wrong.  It looked to me like this thread was started yesterday.  LOL,  I see it now.  Was a 2013 thread.  I thought it was coming up on my new activity.

 

[WRB]

On September 13, 2013 at 0:26 PM, michang5 said:

Thanks for everyone's suggestions!

 

 

 

 

I picked up some 20# PowerPro Super 8 Slick braid (hi-viz yellow) to go with 12# Invizx. I was surprised at the increased casting distance going from 10# to 20#. I would have figured a shorter cast.

 

 

 

 

 

I spent a chunk of last night trying to tie the Berkeley Braid and Triple Loop knots for fluoro-leader-to-hook. Neither is very easy. Maybe I just need to triple-check my Palomar tying.

 

Just trying to understand your tackle set up, spinning or casting? Willing to give make and models of the rod & reel?

To start with there isn't any such thing as 100% knot strength with FC line, it breaks at or very near the knot tied. The good knot is one you can tie consistantly under fishing conditions. The more complex the knot is to tie, the more trouble you will have tieing it.

Tom

[Deleted account]

19 hours ago, Bucky205 said:

 I am old school and frugel, 90 percent of my fishing is pitching and flipping, plain old 20# Stren in Clear/Fluorescent. 

 

I really like pitching with 20 lb mono. Sure there are times when braid is a better choice, but I find it's not nearly as often as most folks think.  

[Paul Roberts]

I guess I'm not understanding the issue.

 

Here's what I do:

10# braid is a "light" braid. I'd use it with 6-8lb leader. 

15# braid: 6-12lb leader

20# braid: 8-15lb

30#: 12-20lb

50#: 15-25lb

 

So, I guess I go "lighter" than the braid. Leader diameter is critical to lure/hook size due to break strength, and presentation due to diameter and stiffness. Braid is neither thick nor stiff. So I think of the braid as the delivery system and the connection from rod to leader. The leader "fishes".

 

[grayfox0327]

Im not expert at all in this matter but it sounds weird to me, why using for example a 50 lb main and a 15 lb mono o fluorocarbon leader, the line will break at it weakest point which is the 15 lb line, i want to understand because i use a 30 lb braid with a 30 lb fluorocarbon leader as a test purpose, i normally use only braided line 30 lb or 40 lb for everything.

[Turkey sandwich]

1 hour ago, grayfox0327 said:

Im not expert at all in this matter but it sounds weird to me, why using for example a 50 lb main and a 15 lb mono o fluorocarbon leader, the line will break at it weakest point which is the 15 lb line, i want to understand because i use a 30 lb braid with a 30 lb fluorocarbon leader as a test purpose, i normally use only braided line 30 lb or 40 lb for everything.

 

 

The purpose of the braid isn't necessarily the strength, so much as it's limpness, castability, ability to cut through vegetation, and a slew of other favorable characteristics. The purpose for a leader, as stated above, is to provide abrasion resistance against rocks/wood/shell beds/etc, provide lower visibility than braid, sink, float, etc to improve the presentation.  The idea, generally, is to match a similar line diameter braid and leader for the sake of connection knots. As for strength, it's almost the last consideration.  Except in really horrendous cover, 12-15lb mono, FC, or copolymer have more than enough pure "strength" to overpower virtually any bass you're ever going to hook.  

[grayfox0327]

7 hours ago, Turkey sandwich said:

 

 

The purpose of the braid isn't necessarily the strength, so much as it's limpness, castability, ability to cut through vegetation, and a slew of other favorable characteristics. The purpose for a leader, as stated above, is to provide abrasion resistance against rocks/wood/shell beds/etc, provide lower visibility than braid, sink, float, etc to improve the presentation.  The idea, generally, is to match a similar line diameter braid and leader for the sake of connection knots. As for strength, it's almost the last consideration.  Except in really horrendous cover, 12-15lb mono, FC, or copolymer have more than enough pure "strength" to overpower virtually any bass you're ever going to hook.  

Thanks for the explanation, now i get the point. ?

So i think that my 30lb braided - 30 lb fluorocarbon is a bad idea right? Braided is 0.25 mm and fluoro is 0.40 mm ?

[Turkey sandwich]

1 hour ago, grayfox0327 said:

Thanks for the explanation, now i get the point. ?

So i think that my 30lb braided - 30 lb fluorocarbon is a bad idea right? Braided is 0.25 mm and fluoro is 0.40 mm ?

unless you're fishing for pike or muskie in freshwater or toothy critters like blue fish in the salt, there's no good argument for 30lb FC.  I'd suggest 10-12lb to cover a lot of conditions and presentations as well as provide good knot strength with a relatively simple connection knot like uni to uni.

[grayfox0327]

3 hours ago, Turkey sandwich said:

unless you're fishing for pike or muskie in freshwater or toothy critters like blue fish in the salt, there's no good argument for 30lb FC.  I'd suggest 10-12lb to cover a lot of conditions and presentations as well as provide good knot strength with a relatively simple connection knot like uni to uni.

Great advice, thanks