Koppers Live Target Bait Ball Crankbaits

[Avalonjohn44]

The Kopper's product looks substantially different from the air brush guy's paint job and that alone should preclude any real lawsuit.  The reason hiring a lawyer for such a case is expensive is that if the lawyer thinks the case is an easy, slam dunk win, their price would reflect that since they expect to take their payment out of the winnings. If it is an 'iffy' case that could go either way, many lawyers will still try to litigate, but will want every dime up front.

 

As for the patent costs, a simple thing such as a lure or a paintjob should run only about 5k. 20K is ridiculous.

[Kenneth Rollston]

Well I am the creator of the original.I did make the lure in January of 2012 and the picture is time stamped on facebook. I have several of them out on the market that I sold to customers. I also will tell you that I have some of the Koppers pro staff on my friends list , this would also explain how Koppers got the pictures to use. This year alone I have had 4 ideas taken from me, this is the only one that I cannot directly prove. So as far as locker room gossip, I am the original maker of that lure. There is no gossip about that.. The only advantage they have is resources to make them with and if I had the resources, I would have done a much better job on theirs. I can produce a much more realistic looking lure from a 8 x 10 shed with only a portion of what they may have at the factory.

And you ask about patents? I am a little guy, small business. I am flattered by this but also slightly disturbed. I do everything by hand and do not mass produce my art.I do not have the resources for the patent then a lawsuit. Everything I make is done for the love of the sport and done so in the USA. There is no mass production with me.

In many ways, it is not that big of a deal, but in some ways it is. It goes to show you that large, multi billion dollar industries do not want to be a 'job creator' and spend the money to hire creative talent. Technology, with its ups and its downs has enabled corporation to basically do what they want while the laugh all the way to the bank. There is no ethics or honesty here...just basically a hinderance for small business to flourish...no matter how hard you work.  

If you had both in your hands, you would say mine is the prototype..
Thank you,

Kenneth
 

 

 

[bass1980]

Dam that sucks. I feel for you Kenneth. Those giants have no ethics and this will not be the last time they steal ideas. I remember the story of Skeet/Berkley sick fish taking the design mold of those trash fish. I don't think they ever told the public they bought the mold and made it like they designed it, well at least that's what Skeet said. They at least paid those guys for the mold even though they could have just copied it and make a mold similar. Well here's one thing to look up on. I never heard of your buisness before and after hearing of this story I now know your buisness. If you can't take any legal action because of cost at least make it loud and clear you were the original inventor and make this negative into a positive for your business.

[Brian Needham]

anyone put it on an Arig yet?

[BuckMaxx]

I appreciate the response Ken and you have a great concept there! There are many of you that I deal with of FB.I would rather give my money to a true artist over a Chinese rendition anyday. In todays world it is very difficult to bring something new into the market place and not have it knocked off or copied. Just keep pushing forward and learn next time people aren't your friend. I will be

looking you up!

[Diggy]

Looks pretty dope to me, I like that. I would definitely work that slow, really slow.

 

Edit

 

just saw the price, lol, Ill pass

[JeziHogg]

I use there lures exclusively besides using a few Strike King lures, for me they catch fish by the ton.

[Kenneth Rollston]

I know it's a different style lure, but I also do not have the resources they have. It's the idea that they took. The good thing is I can do any lure, any size, and any style fish you want on it. Mine would of course be different, but you would have what you wanted not what they are offering. Schools of minnows, bream, baby bass, Bunker, ect. And on any lure, just for the extra charge of me purchasing they're lure you want, and I get most of the lures used, so the price is usually much lower than a new store bought one.

[Bobby Uhrig]

As a scientific angler- I had a very hhmmmm might have gotten crazy -discussion about them at ICAST with a very well known writer about these. My main question to him was. Do you really think that predatory fish can see that concept under certain water clarities and light conditions??? MAAAAAAAAAYBEEEEEE in ultra clear water but on anything low light=stained /deep or muddy  I just didnt see it.. Yes quite possibly on the jerkbait in clearer water but i dont know about the deeper dirtier water. they chase /attack movement/vibration /silouettes and profiles.Yes smell and flavor too--PLUG LOL  

 

same thing with baits that great paint jobs --The other is frogs- It was pointed out to me at last two years ICAST- They said look at this lifelike frog-looks real -I told them -well your usually throwing it in heavy weeds or slop- the bass see movement and the silouette -how does the bass see the top of the frog from below the surface.  Some of the best crankbaits I have had the most production with were beat to hell with half the finish gone. HMMMMM now no one take that idea and win next year LOL... congrats to Koppers though -they are great guys.

[aqualkinbush]

Unfortunately while I can say, ya Kenneth did have the original concept it can hardly be called anything more than a concept compared to the "bait ball". Kenneth's crank while a good idea appears to simply be a picture that is printed out on some of that decal paper and stuck on the crank. They actually went so far as to design 2-3 small baits to place within a three dimensional space to achieve their result. If it has been worked out to the extent that I would expect and it runs true is durable etc... It's honestly leaps and bounds ahead of Kenneth's original design. I believe, to enough of a degree that he would stand very little chance at winning any kind of legal battle regardless of his or Kopper's financial ability.

[Kenneth Rollston]

On 7/13/2013 at 9:50 PM, aqualkinbush said:

Unfortunately while I can say, ya Kenneth did have the original concept it can hardly be called anything more than a concept compared to the "bait ball". Kenneth's crank while a good idea appears to simply be a picture that is printed out on some of that decal paper and stuck on the crank. They actually went so far as to design 2-3 small baits to place within a three dimensional space to achieve their result. If it has been worked out to the extent that I would expect and it runs true is durable etc... It's honestly leaps and bounds ahead of Kenneth's original design. I believe, to enough of a degree that he would stand very little chance at winning any kind of legal battle regardless of his or Kopper's financial ability.

No legal battle is even thought of from my end. What I was saying is it is very similar and after this year of major companies stealing ideas from us little guys, you could clearly see where my idea would be a concept lure for the Bait ball. I do have several of Koppers pro staff on my page so that could explain them getting the picture. This year alone, I have had Rapala take the Scatter rap lip idea after I suggested it to one of their reps, while he approached me to paint some Rapalas for him., Spro taking two of my paint jobs after emails containing pictures of the lures I painted for a customer getting sent to John Crews. Dwain Batey had the same thing going on with Spro until Russ Lane set things straight, even though Spro didn't. So this just seems to fall into place. Lol. I am not mad, but it seems many, many people definitely see the idea they used to make theirs off of my idea. If I had the factory they had to make these, mine would have been much, much better. Mine is clearly not the lure they made, mine would have been considered a concept lure at this point. I may pull the trigger and start up lure manufacturing, I definitely have a edge on them, but I will not ever show, or talk to another person of any idea I have again without a contract getting signed..

Thanks guys for letting me post about this..

Kenneth

[Avalonjohn44]

...This year alone, I have had Rapala take the Scatter rap lip idea after I suggested it to one of their reps, while he approached me to paint some Rapalas for him...

 

Sorry, but I doubt that. Salmo had the scatter lip a few years before Rapala came out with it (around 2011). Or are you admitting to ripping Salmo off?

http://www.salmo.com.pl/en/whacky/

[Avalonjohn44]

Still photos did not do that bait justice, thanks for the video. Definitely picking one up now. 

[Kenneth Rollston]

Sorry, but I doubt that. Salmo had the scatter lip a few years before Rapala came out with it (around 2011). Or are you admitting to ripping Salmo off?

http://www.salmo.com.pl/en/whacky/

• " In the Salmo offer since - 2012
•  
•  
• Quoted from the link you provided.  "They had it in the office since 2012". So even if they had it out first, it wasn't out long and I didn't know of it. If I had known of them having that design, would I dare say I thought of it first in today's media age of everyone knowing all ?
• also I "was" approached by a promotional Rapala rep about painting, that's when I made the mistake of telling him of the Curved lip design, several months later is when Rapala came out with it, but I guess it's a coincidence that I had talked to the rep several months before.. So I can see your point of Salmo having it first, But if you think for one second, Big companies are not trolling Facebook, forums and other sites for ideas., that's just not thinking correctly.. Just ask Russ Lane about spro and Dwain Batey.. The only reason we are not saying "Spro's paintings are just close to Dwains, they didn't take them", is Russ stood up for Dwain and came out with it..
• So yes, maybe there are ideas that are out there at the same time, but not all are just made by the Big companies, they really don't hire talent, they just take it. Examples, Spro, Zoom, Stanley Wedge, Strike king, Manns Have been proven to have taken ideas and paint jobs from others and claim them as their own.. 
• Not ranting, just trying to weed my way through that crap and keep it it real.

[Avalonjohn44]

 

So yes, maybe there are ideas that are out there at the same time...

 

There you go, that is my point.  Maybe Kopper's did tweak your idea, however, it is just as probably that they came up with it a while ago around/before/or just after you did... The case you've laid out of them stealing your idea is tenuous. It is not a stretch to believe that they saw the A-Rig craze of last year and decided to make their own multi minnow bait. This is why I think you should stop going around claiming so on youtube.  That kind of talk can cost you. Especially if you don't already have the $$$ to defend your ideas in court.

[PABASS]

My problem with this bait, is it another lure that is trying to catch fish or the fisherman?  I don't use the A-Rig, do they work well in muddy and or deep water?  I would image though that this baitball will work in muddy and deep water just like other crank baits do, except the fish wont be keying in on the "baitball" and its visuals so it goes back to is it the right tool for the job and when, for 20$ I wont be testing that scenario, but I would image it will work in clear water as expected meaning with visuals but in muddy/deep water there might be better tools to be used.

 

I wish I had time to perform tests like this, Megabass for example looks real, but does the realistic paint job make a difference and when, what justifies its 28$ price tag?  I am hoping that the new hardbaits from GY team and there pricetag will allow me to answer some of those questions, is it the action, the color, the profile, the fall rate, the look of the paint, so many variables.

[whittler1]

Sorry but there are very few new ideas with hard baits. As a few examples, go back and look at the Bomber baits that used the internal foils inside a clear plastic shell to create a similar effect. Curved lips have been used for many years, they were not just invented.  Granted they were not plastic lips but metal, Heddon River Runt is one example. Most modern baits are simply upgraded ideas using better materials and techniques than were available to turn of the century bait makers.  Bending Lexan and making curved lips has been done and discussed since at least 2004 on several of the tacklemaking  sites.

 

 I always wonder if a bass swims along with a crankbait and checks the scale count, fins, gills, eye position and color is correct before striking and do the hooks, split rings and line become invisible?

[Bigbarge50]

I am going to throw this out there..... I own only one Koppers crank ( a bunch of frogs and the mouse though) and in my experience while the paint job is awesome (not one of these new ones) the action left a lot to be desired..... did not seem to do much

 

While the detail impresses me, the action would seem far more important because a fish could not see that much detail with a lure moving by while it shakes around with it's action.....

 

I have not picked up more Koppers cranks because a norman, bomber, and bandit all have had better action for me and I can get two for the price of one koppers.  

 

Does anyone think I am off about this?  Maybe I got a bad lure?  

[Kenneth Rollston]

I am going to throw this out there..... I own only one Koppers crank ( a bunch of frogs and the mouse though) and in my experience while the paint job is awesome (not one of these new ones) the action left a lot to be desired..... did not seem to do much

 

While the detail impresses me, the action would seem far more important because a fish could not see that much detail with a lure moving by while it shakes around with it's action.....

 

I have not picked up more Koppers cranks because a norman, bomber, and bandit all have had better action for me and I can get two for the price of one koppers.  

 

Does anyone think I am off about this?  Maybe I got a bad lure?  

No, I don't think you got a bad lure, it's all about the wiggle and the color they see right before they hit.. 

Most crankbait fish hit out of a reaction, so if your not catching them on a specific lure, it doesn't have what it takes to get bit.. I have 2 Koppers and have caught nothing on them either, but I have won many tourny's on my painted knock off ones I make. So I know that it goes down to color and wiggle, not the realistic look of the lure..Now a jerkbait fished in the early spring is a completely different story. They do have a chance to look at it. 

Thanks..

[dlewisfl]

I've got three Koppers lures and have caught several fish on them when other crankbaits/topwaters weren't getting the job done.  The wakebait usually gets hit when its paused after a couple of cranks so the fish are getting a good look at it, it's not whizzing by them.  The pro extolling the virtues of the Wakebait in iCast '10 video said to burn it for best results, that certainly doesn't work for me all year.

 

I usually get bites on the Koppers crankbait lures within the first few casts.  Now maybe the fish magically show up the second I tie them on, or maybe they have a quality that causes fish to bite that other lures don't.  They have a more realistic paint job and a tighter "wiggle" than the action of my other crankbaits.  I do not own any of Kenneth's lures so can't compare the two.

 

To the guy that wrote: "Now koppers "designs" this revolutionary idea that is an absolute dead ringer to his", get your eyes checked, these two baits aren't even close.  If you have to use such ridiculously wrong statements to prove a point, you don't have any credibility.  Koppers claims to have had this lure in development for four years, from what I've seen Kenneth write on other sites, he created his in 2012 more as a novelty than a serious concept.

[bass1980]

Of course koppers would say they had the idea for years lol. This is nothing new in the world of small inventors vs giant manufacturers.

Still have to say this is one of the biggest gimmick lures ever. If it catches fish it'll be solely on the action and profile, not the three little fish in the bait ball LMAO. I would rather hop on the idea of an A-rig cranking setup lol.

[derekxec]

thats what i was thinking lol i might have to grab a couple of these and umbrella rig them to make an even bigger school and see how snook like it lol...i like my other live target lures they catch lots for me so why not this one too 

[FrogFreak]

OK, I hope nobody steals this idea.....Now this is going to get crazy but I'm thinking about 3 cranks inside one crank and each of those 3 cranks has 3 cranks inside of it.....

 

But seriously, I am well aware that in most situations, these things catch more fisherman than fish. I agree with everyone that the crank bait bite is a reaction bite, why do you think everyone is trying to knock crank baits off of things? I think there are times that an ultra realistic look can help but I'm not sure about this one. I do own Koppers frogs and I love them but not because of the realism, let's face it, a bass sees the silhouette and maybe the color of the bottom and that's about it. Why I love them is my hook up ratio is great because they are made with great hooks and a soft yet durable body. If another cheaper frog had the same hook up ratio I would use it. I don't care about looks, I care about performance baby!

[bigbill]

Ken message sent.

[bigbill]

I fabricated the Reese receiver hitch for an ATV/QUAD to hold a moveable winch from front to rear and for side attachments a decade before it was offered. I came up with a mount to hold a dirtbike on a Reese receiver on the rear of my suburban. I never gave the patent a thought too. I think the guy who purchased my quad or someone who seen it on my trailer patented it. Someone had to see my dirtbike mount too there both manufactured today.

Stealing ideas goes all the way back to the VCR cassets, the editable arrangements, ect.

I have a lot of ideas being a lead engineering tech but I keep them under wraps now.