Braided Line Questions

[RoachDad]

Just thinking out loud...

Ain't that fun? 

[RoachDad]

Conditioning isn't a form of intellect its a response to an environmental factor, why do bass take food pellets?  

Man PABass, I have to admit that you stumped the ol RoachDad with that one!

 

Let me cipher a little.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that conditioning is possible but with a feeder we are talking about something happening every day without fail.  to say that a bass gets conditioned to a lure seems far fetched.  they would have to get caught everytime they saw a certain lure and even then it woudl have to be day after day. 

 

I've seen studies where bass are caught repeatedly with the same lure after 15 minutes or so.  the memory of a bass is 15 minutes according to biologists. 

[RoachDad]

. But for my style and methods of fishing, leader all the way!!

I hear you brother!  Nothing wrong with a leader, but its too much work for me.  If I had the same results you had I might change my mind. 

[SirSnookalot]

If for no other reason I always use a leader with my braid , because I cast and retrieve lures with treble hooks as much as possible, the leader is so much easier to untangle than braid around hooks.  A fish of any species is not an animal of intelligence, they do 2 things only that's eat and reproduce.  Fish strike baits that are artificial, birds swoop down take a look at unlive bait and almost always fly away. Fish do not solve problems, do not reason, some get big because mother nature has given a particular one a set of genes tailored for survival, with luck bestowed on it as not to have been a meal for another fish, bird, gator, otter or man.  If there is any conditioning, it's the fisherman that's been conditioned to recognize what stimulus will turn a fish of any species on.  

[Hogsticker]

Oh my goodness. Conditioned is a very good way to sum things up. If bass or fish in general are dumb as bricks, why aren't you filling your livewell every single time you go out? I use braid because because it handles much better and cast further than any nylon or fluoro line. More importantly it has zero stretch affording me much greater sensitivity when fishing bottom contact presentations. I've seen fish in shallow water who were line shy up close and personal several times. Thinner less visible line worked while others would not. You are talking about studies conducted in a controlled evviroment, not an adult fishes home habitat. Fish are spooky, I will leave it at that. Noise, shadows, line, on and on. When you say they are stupid what are you comparing them to, a banana? I'm out!

[Hogsticker]

Hey guys, I am having fun with this subject!

 

the only way to prove the statements that a leader works is to have a control group of fish in a confined space and offer them matching baits with a leader or braid and see which one is taken most often over a period of time.  I know all of us have been fishing a lure and for some reason it suddenly begins working. There is no way to prove this just because you are sure the leader helps you catch fish.   

 

I did some knot research and it was enlightening (link below).  Knots don't cause as much trouble as i thought. 

 

when you tie a leader knot, your line is the strength of the weakest line at that knot. 

1) an Albright knot is 94%.  I thought it would be lower than that.  So if you tie 12 lb mono leader on 20 lb braid, you are effectively fishing with 11 lb mono.  Not bad!

2) However, all lines are actually stronger than their label.  12 lb mono is actually about 15 lb

3) However #2, any wrapping knot is totally dependent on how perfectly you tie it.  If you overlap the lines you have a less than perfect knot

 

For me, i am lazy. 

1) I don't like tying "line to line" knots.  They are hard for me to tie

2) I don't like tying more knots than I have to tie

3) I don't believe a fish that thinks a jig is a crawfish cares about the line

4) I don't like how line knots go through rod eyes (unless you have a very short leader)

5) if my effective line strength and line size is 12 lb mono, I'd rather just spool up 12 lb mono.

 

The only reason I would use a leader is to have effetively 2 lines with out a second rod.  If I wanted braid for an application, that woudl be spooled.  If I wanted to use mono for something else, rather than have another rod with mono, just tie on a leader.

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/fishing/bass/where-fish/2009/02/strongest-fishing-knots?photo=1#node-1001319720

I'm not trying to sound argumentative as well, and would like to spologize to the OP for this getting so off topic.

It sounds like you you show no credibility for a leader simply because you do not like tying knots. Do you think professional level anglers use a leader to try and push a product consisting of 2 feet of leader from small amounts of actual televised coverage? No, they use it because they believe it increases his/her chance of getting bit in tough conditions, and they wanna get paid. I fish all winter long trolling for trout. I can recall when I 1st started going out with my father-in-law. He was getting strikes and landing fish with regularity. I couldn't figure out why I was not. After two full seasons of this crap I gave into the fluoro leader he suggested several times over. Guess what? I started catching fish. Nothing different. Same minnow imitations, same distance behind the boat - just a leader. Long lining shallow jerk baits in clear shallow water. Just another example to somewhat put this to rest. It does have merit regardless as to how ignorant you think a fish is. Little planted rainbows and other young species, yeah, their quite stupid. Big fish - maybe you should give them a little more credit, just sayin

[RoachDad]

 Do you think professional level anglers use a leader to try and push a product consisting of 2 feet of leader from small amounts of actual televised coverage?

Hogsticker, I don't believe a thing the pros do.  I believe everything they do is to sell products.  Sorry about that.  I think they do lots of stuff on the camera that they do not do in real life.  I like the pros and I watch the shows to see what they are doing, but I do what I think is best for me.  I remember buying a "Dancin' Eel" about 20 years ago because I saw Bill Dance catching one bass after another.  I never caught a thing with that lure. 

 

The main reason I personally do not use a leader is it makes no sense to me.  An added benefit is that I have one less knot to worry about.  if I had the same results as you guys i would do the same thing.  I catch bass at a comfortable level without leaders.  If I fished with someone and was convinced they caught more fish because they had a leader, trust me, I'd be tying those knots like crazy. 

[RoachDad]

 When you say they are stupid what are you comparing them to, a banana? I'm out!

Hogsticker, I feel like I have hurt your feelings and I apologize.  I don't know how you rate intelligence but a bass is not even on an IQ scale.  They are way dumber than a puppy.  They have no intelligence.  They are simply reacting on instinct. 

 

Lure companies and rod and reel companies are working hard every day to catch fishermen not fish. 

 

Being unintelligent does not make them easier to catch.  They still have to be found.  You still have to appeal to their animal instincts at that immediate moment.  If you happen to find fish that are hungry they are easy to catch.  But, if you find fish and they are not hungry you have to find a way to get them to strike. 

[RoachDad]

If for no other reason I always use a leader with my braid , because I cast and retrieve lures with treble hooks as much as possible, the leader is so much easier to untangle than braid around hooks.  A fish of any species is not an animal of intelligence, they do 2 things only that's eat and reproduce.  Fish strike baits that are artificial, birds swoop down take a look at unlive bait and almost always fly away. Fish do not solve problems, do not reason, some get big because mother nature has given a particular one a set of genes tailored for survival, with luck bestowed on it as not to have been a meal for another fish, bird, gator, otter or man.  If there is any conditioning, it's the fisherman that's been conditioned to recognize what stimulus will turn a fish of any species on.  

I totally agree! 

[Hogsticker]

Hogsticker, I feel like I have hurt your feelings and I apologize.  I don't know how you rate intelligence but a bass is not even on an IQ scale.  They are way dumber than a puppy.  They have no intelligence.  They are simply reacting on instinct. 

 

Lure companies and rod and reel companies are working hard every day to catch fishermen not fish. 

 

Being unintelligent does not make them easier to catch.  They still have to be found.  You still have to appeal to their animal instincts at that immediate moment.  If you happen to find fish that are hungry they are easy to catch.  But, if you find fish and they are not hungry you have to find a way to get them to strike. 

No feelings hurt, it's all good. I enjoy the debate. What can I say, some people are just super stubborn! The pros did not get to be pros by not knowing what they are doing. They wouldn't be very good at their job. None the less, it's safe to say that a lot of them push a product, and on the flip side of that coin some of them like to share and teach. Again, it's not really fair to compare the intelligence of a bass to a dog, grape, or gorilla, and just because you feel you catch your "fair share" of fish does not mean you can't catch more. And yes, they are reacting on instinct. An insticnt to not strike your lure because they relate seeing that line to pain. My suggestion to all reading this thread - take every advantage you can if you want to optimize your opportunity to be successful. Or don't

[RoachDad]

My suggestion to all reading this thread - take every advantage you can if you want to optimize your opportunity to be successful. Or don't

Yeah man!  totally agree.

[PABASS]

Man PABass, I have to admit that you stumped the ol RoachDad with that one!

 

Let me cipher a little.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that conditioning is possible but with a feeder we are talking about something happening every day without fail.  to say that a bass gets conditioned to a lure seems far fetched.  they would have to get caught everytime they saw a certain lure and even then it woudl have to be day after day. 

 

I've seen studies where bass are caught repeatedly with the same lure after 15 minutes or so.  the memory of a bass is 15 minutes according to biologists. 

Sorry OP I know I am way off topic here to show another viewpoint.

 

I have read and watched biologist say many things, the fact is we don't know, I am not saying biologist are off on the 15 minutes of memory as we humans understand Bass memory, Bass are not humans they didn't evolve to rely on memory. That is why I use the term conditioning.  You could argue instinct is a form of memory that gets passed on through genes, which spans many millions of years of memory.  I would imagine that automatic feeders break down, need to be fixed and or someone forgets to put feed in them, I would also imagine it would take longer then 15 minutes to remedy this issue, I would bet the fish would be quick to return once they felt the fish dispensing presence working again.  I believe when a bass is actively feeding line probably doesn't matter, while I cant prove this with schooling bass line might not matter as much because of competition.  But there are factors that line clarity matters, I have seen it, I have experienced it and I use it to my advantage.  Look at other examples of people that have bass as pets on youtube, Bass know that they are being feed they recognize something, in the wild Bass swim away as soon as they see us in captivity they swim towards us, explain that conditioning, I would imagine most species of fish can be conditioned in this way, go to an aquarium and see for yourself.

I want to add, Erie PA and Gobbies, SMB never had this food source and now they do, and man do the fish exploit this and so do we and in this example the fish are as smart as a human.

[RoachDad]

 

 in this example the fish are as smart as a human.

 

That is probably very true in many cases!    Like me when I am trying to find the little boogers out there in the water.

[WDinarte]

Ok, after I read the complete post...

Is the leader good or NOT ?.... I'm kidding.

[Trailer]

I don't have time to read the entire thread, but I did notice the argument of realistic, life-like presentations. What about the stinking treble hooks guys? I've never seen shad in the wild with trebles on their belly. And what about that big plastic lip on the cranks?

 

I'm on the fence but if fish shunned everything that wasn't 100% life-like we'd be in trouble. Forget about the line, what about that metal arm on the spinner bait or that huge black bristle coming from that "crawdad's" head?

[BigAL]

65# or 80# go big brother u never know!!!!!

[Got1Fishing]

Hey guys, if I want to buy braided line, say 50lbs, would size leader should I use? I have 8, 10, and 15lb FC, and 20lb Mono. Any of these good or should I buy another size? This is for jig fishing!