Braided Line Questions

[bassfisherman3]

and also for flipping soft plastics?

[RoachDad]

thanks for the replies, would you guys use 30 or 50 pound braid for worm fishin?

I seriously doubt you need more than 30 lb.  That is probably more than you need.  I did buy some 50 for an A-rig because that thing cost alot of money and it has 5 open hooks so it will get hung up.

[dodgeguy]

thanks for the replies, would you guys use 30 or 50 pound braid for worm fishin?

10 or 20 on spinning and at least 50 on baitcast.

[RoachDad]

I am a big fan fan of braid, but I almost always use a leader. Sometimes the bass don't care if you use straight braid, but there are certainly times when they do.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, but I just don't see how you could prove this.  I really think it is alot more of a feeling and conventional wisdom. 

 

If you are going to use a leader, then your fishing with whatever the leader is.  Not braid.  If you have 50 lb braid and 12 lb mono, then your fishing line is 12 lb mono, period.  The old line is "a chain is only as strong as your weakest link".  The knot between the leader and main line is your weakest link. 

 

If I thought a mono leader made the difference, I woudl just spool up that size line.  But that is just me. 

 

To me leaders had 2 purposes.  In deep sea fishing the leader is stronger so the fish cannot bite through it, and in fly fishing because the main line actually casts the lure more than the rod does.  So your main line is serving a greater purpose. 

 

Like I said, its a personal preference and if it gives you confidence, that is huge. 

[Nitrofreak]

Perhaps, but your not a fish. I fish extremely clear lakes, and I can tell you that using a leader with slow moving presentations where the fish can get a good look at it rather than a quick reflex reaction type of strike is a must. If you want to be productive anyways. If there is even a slight chance it will help, why wouldn't you want to do it? It's no different than presenting your offering in the most realistic fashion possible. Tie the connection knots the night before you go. If your tying good knots correctly the break off should occur at the bait. The leader should last you all day.

 

The lake I was fishing with my pics added, was gin clear to about 20 feet, both me and my fishing partner saw these fish, we both used the same identical bait, SP100 L/C pointers, he was first to cast to the area, he strictly uses clear lines, and he came up empty handed, my line was old enough that it has become a light green color instead of the deep grass green it is when its new, I could physically see my line all the way to the bait, the only difference between my friend and me was the line and the technique used, I ended up with the fish, he did not.

 

I am not by any means saying that this is going to be true anywhere and everywhere, but I do fish some gin clear strip mines and old gravel pits with nothing but braid, the fish will focus on the bait not the line, I have never seen a fish come to the front of the bait to see what kind of line you are using or to see if there is even a line attached, to me it will always be in the presentation, at least for my areas of water, I have had them all different ways, with leaders and without, where I am located and the waters I fish, I have not noticed any significant positive to either.

 

I have not tried all lines of braid but as mentioned, Spiderwire is all I have tried this with, 30lb with 8lb diameter, I have been just as successful with either.

[annexation]

I tie braid direct to lure and it doesn't seem to cost me bites. I love braid's lack of stretch and generally dislike leaders. If I'm having a tough day, I've been known to tie on a fluorocarbon leader, but honestly I can't tell if it helps or not in the end.

[PABASS]

To the point of why would fish eat a buzzbait or a jig= reaction, aggression(territorial), hunger  is the nature of our quarry, they cant reach out and touch something as we can so they use there mouth and get hooked.  When your in clear water how many times have you just pulled up to/walk to an area just to see a fish swim away, its because they see you, if you give them enough time they can see your line as well.  Line is not natural to them and is not a food source.  I am talking clear water, water that when you wade in it you can see your feet just as clear is if it was on land.  If you are not trying it and you practice tying leader materials and lets just say it brings that one extra fish you might not normally get, why not try it?  This is for clear water, slow presentation lures.  I prefer braid to FC that's why I use FC as a leader materiel and remove my leader it when the water is dirty.

[CDMeyer]

I think the use of braid when Texas- rigging is more than appropriate!  If I am Texas-rigging in a heavy cover area I use Spider Wire 20lb Stealth-Camo.  This blends right in with my cover and provides me with all the strength I need when rearing up on a bass.  As for Carolina-rigging I do not know that is not my specialty, but Texas-rigging is so if I were you I would rig a rod with braid for Texas-rigging.  You will be reaping the rewards! Trust me.

[thehooligan]

I started using braid a few years ago and was tying straight to the hook. When i heard about tying flouro leaders two years ago i started doing it and ive had great results.

 

I think im going to start trying full braid again, and only tie leaders for dropshot. 

[dodgeguy]

The lake I was fishing with my pics added, was gin clear to about 20 feet, both me and my fishing partner saw these fish, we both used the same identical bait, SP100 L/C pointers, he was first to cast to the area, he strictly uses clear lines, and he came up empty handed, my line was old enough that it has become a light green color instead of the deep grass green it is when its new, I could physically see my line all the way to the bait, the only difference between my friend and me was the line and the technique used, I ended up with the fish, he did not.

 

I am not by any means saying that this is going to be true anywhere and everywhere, but I do fish some gin clear strip mines and old gravel pits with nothing but braid, the fish will focus on the bait not the line, I have never seen a fish come to the front of the bait to see what kind of line you are using or to see if there is even a line attached, to me it will always be in the presentation, at least for my areas of water, I have had them all different ways, with leaders and without, where I am located and the waters I fish, I have not noticed any significant positive to either.

 

I have not tried all lines of braid but as mentioned, Spiderwire is all I have tried this with, 30lb with 8lb diameter, I have been just as successful with either.

 

 

i agree with this 100% !!!

[mtaag3]

I'll ask the dumb question, why can't they make braid clear or close to clear? In looking I've seen yellow, orange, red, two shades of green, brown but not clear.

 

Wouldn't that solve all the issues? 

[Hogsticker]

You were fishing a reaction bait over 20 ft. Of water. Little different than a finesse jig in 6 ft. Of water. If people don't think fish are line shy, especially trout in heavily pressured waters.....hey, more power to em

[Hogsticker]

Fish lack the lobe in their brain for logical thinking. They cannot look at something and think about it they can only react. I forget where I read this, but a study was done on bass to see how long they could remember and the results was 15 minutes of memory. During the study, a fish was caught, tagged and put back in the tank and then 15 minutes later, on the same line, bait, technique and all the same fish was caught again. If a fish had the ability to reason, that fish would have remembered that bait was danger and not to go for it a second time. I fully believe that fish cannot determine if a bait is attached to a line. How ever I do believe that a line moving may spook the fish if were looking at the bait just sitting there and then out of the corner of the fish's eye something moved while the fishermen jiggle the bait. Boils down to use what you feel comfortable with.

I beg to differ. A fish remembers getting stung. Fish are naturally spooky and very aware of their environment, including prey that does not look, feel, or smell natural. They don't grow big by being stupid. If this were the case every day on the water would be a knock out punch, granted you found fish. Your referring to a bass in a tank -

[RoachDad]

Hey guys, I am having fun with this subject!

 

the only way to prove the statements that a leader works is to have a control group of fish in a confined space and offer them matching baits with a leader or braid and see which one is taken most often over a period of time.  I know all of us have been fishing a lure and for some reason it suddenly begins working. There is no way to prove this just because you are sure the leader helps you catch fish.   

 

I did some knot research and it was enlightening (link below).  Knots don't cause as much trouble as i thought. 

 

when you tie a leader knot, your line is the strength of the weakest line at that knot. 

1) an Albright knot is 94%.  I thought it would be lower than that.  So if you tie 12 lb mono leader on 20 lb braid, you are effectively fishing with 11 lb mono.  Not bad!

2) However, all lines are actually stronger than their label.  12 lb mono is actually about 15 lb

3) However #2, any wrapping knot is totally dependent on how perfectly you tie it.  If you overlap the lines you have a less than perfect knot

 

For me, i am lazy. 

1) I don't like tying "line to line" knots.  They are hard for me to tie

2) I don't like tying more knots than I have to tie

3) I don't believe a fish that thinks a jig is a crawfish cares about the line

4) I don't like how line knots go through rod eyes (unless you have a very short leader)

5) if my effective line strength and line size is 12 lb mono, I'd rather just spool up 12 lb mono.

 

The only reason I would use a leader is to have effetively 2 lines with out a second rod.  If I wanted braid for an application, that woudl be spooled.  If I wanted to use mono for something else, rather than have another rod with mono, just tie on a leader.

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/fishing/bass/where-fish/2009/02/strongest-fishing-knots?photo=1#node-1001319720

[RoachDad]

I beg to differ. A fish remembers getting stung. Fish are naturally spooky and very aware of their environment, including prey that does not look, feel, or smell natural. They don't grow big by being stupid. If this were the case every day on the water would be a knock out punch, granted you found fish. Your referring to a bass in a tank -

I know you feel this in your gut, but its just not true.  Fish are dumb as bricks.  THey have very small brains.  They do not figure things out.  Watch the video by the Pond Boss.  He discusses this at length.  A bass has a 15 minute memory at best.  He discusses what makes a bass big and it has nothing to do with intelligence. 

 

A big bass is blessed with female organs, correct genes, a steady supply of food, the correct amount of good water, and some natural tendencies like being a loner and thus not hanging out in schools.  And #1 being very lucky that they are not killed or eaten by other fish.

[Darren.]

A different take, one which I've explained in another post...

 

Braid is phenomenal for mainline on spinning gear. For me it is PowerPro in 10 lb test.

 

I always tie a leader, of differing pound tests depending on whether I'm fishing cover, open water, etc.

 

The different take is this: spooling only braid is expensive, it will last a long time if you aren't tying and retying over and over, shortening the length of your braided mainline. On the other hand, tying a leader of say, 6', with an Albright knot means you are retying hooks, etc., only on that 6' length until it is short enough to change out. That's a lot of retying that leaves your braided mainline in tact.

 

While it may seem moot to some, it has proven quite cost-effective for me. Whether or not bass mind the line or not is really irrelevant to me. I have tried straight braid vs. leader. Caught fish on both.

 

And I have 100% faith in my line-to-leader Albright knots.

 

So this is one reason I fish braid + leader, it is my 2 cents.

[RoachDad]

I guess my main question for leader people, is why do you have braid? 

 

I use braid because it is stronger at a smaller size.  It costs more than mono.  Since your effective line strength is the mono, why do you have braid?

[RoachDad]

While it may seem moot to some, it has proven quite cost-effective for me. Whether or not bass mind the line or not is really irrelevant to me. I have tried straight braid vs. leader. Caught fish on both.

 

See? Now this makes sense to me.  My braided spool last so long that I don't care about the cost but if you are trying to save money and you prefer the braid on the spool, that makes sense. 

 

I couldn't begin to calculate the cost difference but in my mind it would be hard to imagine that retying cost you very much.  But I don't fish as much as alot of you guys. 

[PABASS]

My reason is I don't use FC as a main line haven't found one I have liked but I also haven't tried many brands, but I like braid and I practice knot tying allot and I trust my knots not to break, I have many times in the past lost my lure but my line to line knot held strong.  You go out in clear water, heavy pressured river/lakes and catch bass using slow tactics using braid more power to you, but it is my experience you can do better with a leader.  How many people drop shot with braid, why not do you think?

 

We need to understand conditioning because bass just like most animals can be conditioned, you go to any pond and fish it hard in a season those fish will be much harder to catch, I have done on many ponds.  BR has an article about a lunker fish that was tagged, the guy knew it was there but wouldn't hit his lure, he though it was something he was doing, it was but he didn't realize it was his trolling motor spooking the fish, the bass become conditioned to that feeling =bad=swim away.  Why do bass eat food pellets, they are conditioned too.

[RoachDad]

We need to understand conditioning because bass just like most animals can be conditioned, you go to any pond and fish it hard in a season those fish will be much harder to catch, I have done on many ponds.  BR has an article about a lunker fish that was tagged, the guy knew it was there but wouldn't hit his lure, he though it was something he was doing, it was but he didn't realize it was his trolling motor spooking the fish, the bass become conditioned to that feeling =bad=swim away.  Why do bass eat food pellets, they are conditioned too.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but i just don't think there is any data to support this.  The fact that it is hard to catch fish could be for any number of reasons.  The fish are not smart enough to be conditioned to avoid a lure.  How many times would a fish have to be caught to be conditioned?  10, 20, 100?  That fish would starve.

 

Being spooked at a trolling motor is not a conditioned response.  That is an instinct like flinching at a gun shot.  If conditioning were in place, the opposite would happen.  Every time a bass heard/felt/sensed a TM and did not get caught would condition it that nothing is wrong with Trolling Motors.  Unless every time it heard a TM it got caught! 

 

No offense but it is a common mistake to give fish credit for intelligence.  They don't have any.  They don't remember for more than 15 minutes.  There are studies and proofs. They have tiny little brains.  Not enough for reasoning powers.  Fish are either hungry, irritated or reactionary when they hit a lure.  They do not think about it.  They have no idea they are in water.  If they don't hit a lure it is because of something  like they are not hungry or they don't feel like it or they don't see it or if doesn't appeal to them.  Its not because last time the got hooked by that lure.

[RoachDad]

BTW, I am not saying that fish don't get spooked.  I think they spook quite easily and I think that often a TM will indeed stop a fish from hitting a lure.  And on busy weekends with lots of boats and strange noises I beleive they do get turned off because they are scared or upset.  But if they could be conditioned, they woudl realize that they hear that all summer long and they don't get caught. 

 

Big fish are really just fraidy cats who spook at everthing.  (including my braid )

[PABASS]

Conditioning isn't a form of intellect its a response to an environmental factor, why do bass take food pellets?  They are conditioned to do so, why do they have automatic food dispensers?  How can the fish know that food comes out of this dispenser when it forgets in 15 mins?  Why would you hang around this large object that drops things at you unless you were conditioned to do so.  I am not saying a bass knew what a TM was and that it means humans are coming to catch, it just proves that this bass was conditioned to avoid that factor.

[derekxec]

how about this...

 

if we use the moss green powerpro braid without leader maybe since it matches the grasses underwater they think your bait is following a grass line

[Darren.]

See? Now this makes sense to me.  My braided spool last so long that I don't care about the cost but if you are trying to save money and you prefer the braid on the spool, that makes sense. 

 

I couldn't begin to calculate the cost difference but in my mind it would be hard to imagine that retying cost you very much.  But I don't fish as much as alot of you guys. 

 

Well, I should clarify, my post was ONE reason I prefer a leader. While I have indeed caught fish on both straight braid and w/leader, I feel more confident with the leader in general. Thus, because I use a leader all the time, I have caught more than the times I've used straight braid. Logical, I use one method more than the other, thus numbers favor leader.

 

That said, when I have fished them side by side, the leader has tended to best the straight braid setup(s).

 

So a leader is 1) economical for me, and 2) more effective based on my experience, and confidence.

 

Granted, bass are caught on steel leaders, A-rigs, etc. But for my style and methods of fishing, leader all the way!!

[Darren.]

Conditioning isn't a form of intellect its a response to an environmental factor, why do bass take food pellets?  They are conditioned to do so, why do they have automatic food dispensers?  How can the fish know that food comes out of this dispenser when it forgets in 15 mins?  Why would you hang around this large object that drops things at you unless you were conditioned to do so.  I am not saying a bass knew what a TM was and that it means humans are coming to catch, it just proves that this bass was conditioned to avoid that factor.

 

I tend to agree. Obviously we don't understand all the biological, ecological factors as to when and why bass bite. Water types, salinity, clarity, pressure, moon phase, cold front, warm front, and so on. So many factors play in.

 

Then there's the evolutionary survival instinct (humor me if you don't dig evolution). Adaptation, survival, conditioning play factors. What part of a bass's memory (15 minutes long?) is directly related to the conditions the bass lives in? If that bass was displaced and put in one of my lakes, would it behave the exact same way? 

 

Just thinking out loud...