An Accidental Discovery

[J Francho]

You guys need to get out of Wally World, and try a real tackle store. NOTHING's cheap anymore. The gear offered for sale now is LIGHT YEARS ahead in quality and performance of what was around 20 years ago. I remember paying over $100 for a Daiwa low pro baitcaster with 2 bearings. It wasn't even an aluminum frame. Now for just a few bucks more, you can get a reel that will last you years, is made of aluminum, and casts a ton easier than reels from days gone by. You like your old reels, that's cool, I've got a few I really like as well. But today, around $150 gets you a whole lot more quality and performance than years gone by.

[The Next KVD]

Wow, I really only started this to say if you needed parts you can probably shop around or atleast get through anything that is on backorder or heck even cannabilize a reel bought on ebay. 

 

I really am a Shimano addict and prefer their reels due to the fact that they last forever and parts are available for most of the old popular models.  I'm definitely in that small group that prefers quality and only playing around with the lews and pq due to the fact that I'm using them for stuff that I don't get a chance to throw very much.  Our fish here up north just don't go very deep for very long so there wasn't much use in spending $120+ for a decent Shimano and especially $199+ for the sophisticated reels in their lineup for a deep crankbait reel. 

[shootermcbob]

As J stated above, if the reel functions as promised who cares who made it?

 

You can always impress people with your equipment's brand but the final results in your catch are what matters.

 

And I have discovered that the fish really don't care about your tackle. It is your presentation that matters to them.

 

All this coming from a Shimano and G. Loomis guy!!!

 

I remember back in the 60s and 70s when Sears had contracts with manufacturers to produce their products with the Sears brand. Anything you wanted had the Sears brand. The Sears basketballs for outdoor play were top of the line. And Sears had tires, too. Plus athletic equipment and supplies, clothing, appliances, TVs, radios...you name it and Sears had it in their name.They even had houses that still stand today back in the 30s and 40s.

 

The number of manufacturers are reduced from days gone by so companies have to contract with the same manufacturers to produce their products.

 

Regarding clothes, just send your lables to a clothing manufacturer and they will sew up a mess of your clothing line for you and me and J and Glenn and Road Warrier and Gene and put their individual lables in them. You can sell them for whatever you want under your name.

 

Nice to know the BPS reels are made with the Lew's profile. BPS needs to upgrade their reels so they don't break as fast as they do.

Yes sir, They sure do. I agree with this As I am typing this reply from the warmth and comfort from my "Sears" house.

[0119]

How can you say a shimano reel lasts forever when they do not support long term parts availability?  You do not see the number of shimano beastmasters, bantam 100's etc in boats or anglers hands like you do old Ambassadeurs.  There is no evidence that shimanos plan of purposeful obsolescence through model change has made a durable product.

[J Francho]

I see more 20 year old Curado Bs in average fisherman's and actual pro's boats more than I see Abu round reels. It's OK that you like them. I like them too. Nothing more fun than taking an old 2500c and turning into a screamer. They're unique, and cool in the way a Morgan sports car is with it's wooden frame.

[Maico1]

I agree with you Hooligan but dont no longer see that masterful engineering coming from shimano.  They are just as lame as all the other manufacturers even the models made in Japan.  Its the new business model that imitates what american business college teaches.  Planned obsolescence, poor customer service, make your profit and run with it.  If shimano, maybe even Daiwa, kept the Japanese business model at heart it would be a different matter entirely.

Just curious, could you please elaborate more on what is the problem with JDM products.....Thank you.

[Hooligan]

You guys need to get out of Wally World, and try a real tackle store. NOTHING's cheap anymore. The gear offered for sale now is LIGHT YEARS ahead in quality and performance of what was around 20 years ago. I remember paying over $100 for a Daiwa low pro baitcaster with 2 bearings. It wasn't even an aluminum frame. Now for just a few bucks more, you can get a reel that will last you years, is made of aluminum, and casts a ton easier than reels from days gone by. You like your old reels, that's cool, I've got a few I really like as well. But today, around $150 gets you a whole lot more quality and performance than years gone by.

Ding ding, there's a winner folks!

Shimano and Daiwa both still hold the same business that they always have, possibly better than it has been in the past.

There is zero doubt that the components that both these companies use in their reels are better than what Pure Fishing and others use. It's undeniable because of the grade of the bearings and the quality of component manufacture. Take the out, look at the race, the shields, any of the gearing a polished brass gear is undeniably smoother and stronger than its die cast aluminum counterpart.

Frames that are molded of lesser quality metals are vastly different than their cast and machined counterparts. We've cut many frames apart for inspection and only two companies had zero inclusion or voids in 12 frame cuts per reel on 15 reels. Shimano and Daiwa were the two. The new Revo is supposed to be on par with that, but we've not tested them yet. The gen 1 and gen 2 both tended to have a void on. The off side behind the level wind mount point.

But I digress... In most cases the reels today are built light years ahead of those built just ten years ago.

[0119]

What job or career do you have where you cut dozens of frames apart for inspection. Sounds like a govt job like fda meat inspector. Shimano nor Daiwa make there bearings inhouse. Probably sourced from the same Chinese factory Abu Okuma and all the other makers get their bb's. Just as screws c clips and o rings are sourced out.

[Jrob78]

I see more 20 year old Curado Bs in average fisherman's and actual pro's boats more than I see Abu round reels. It's OK that you like them. I like them too. Nothing more fun than taking an old 2500c and turning into a screamer. They're unique, and cool in the way a Morgan sports car is with it's wooden frame.

 

I agree with you.  Curado B's are everywhere and still going strong.  I can walk in Southwestern Parts right now and buy any part I need for any of the B-E series Shimanos ever made.  Turn on an Elite Series or FLW tournament and before it's over, you will see a Bantam Curado on someone's deck or in their hands.  They hold their own with the majority of reels made today.  Give me a Japanese made Shimano or Daiwa over a Korean made Lew's or Revo every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Capt.Bob]

Yep Shimano and Diawa both better wake up, Shimano has already cut corners and cheapend up the Curado and now the Chronarch. They are trying to compete with these companies that outsource the whole reel, and it blew up, they want high dollar and want to sell less quality, it aint working, a year ago the Curado was probably the best selling mid priced low profile baitcaster on the market, today it is probably Lews, if not at the rate Lew's is gaining acceptance it soon will be. Now they have cheapened the Symetry and the Saros, by eliminating the Aluminum frame. But not the price??? I noticed they started this when they changed the oscolation system from the worm feed on the FH Symetre to the cam type on the FI, before that the FH and earlier models were stradics with one less bearing and composite spare spool, and different handle!!

 

As for the Shimano bearings, when I bought my first Lews TP I bought a set of abec 7 SS bearing to upgrade it. I did this and seen no noticeable improvement. So I then took the stock bearings and put them in my Calcutta, a CT200GTB,same size bearings, that was a noticable improvement, so then I changed them around and put the stock bearings back in the Lews and the Abec 7's in the Calcutta, it was no better than the stock Lew's bearings, the point is Lew's evidently uses a better bearing than the standard "B" Calcutta comes with, and I will take a good abec 5 SS bearing anyday over an ARB, these things may be better for someone who never cleans or lubes there gear or better in salt water, but they aren't as efficient as a good SS bearing. I could go on and on but the point should be clear, every real brand is doing all they can to save pennies to compete in a dog eat dog market, and in the past few years the guy's on hear like DVC, Francho  .RM. and others I am sure have noticed this more and more lately when servicing newer models, I have. Most have went to a main manufacturer who can buy cheaper as they build several brands and deal in much bigger volume, so Shimano and Diawa will continue to cut as many corners as they can to keep there cost where they can compete, unfortunately we are not seeing the upgrades in materials and durability we used to with there new models. This is also leveling the playing field and others are bringing better models to the table to compete with them at more reasonable prices. Instead of an upgraded Sahara, Symetre, Saros, Curado, Chronarch, we will probably continue to see less quality without paying less???? Time will tell, I hope they don't start doing this with there top tier products?????  

 

The one last thing that is obvious is they all package them on there own. I just got my new BB1 from Lew's today and discovered something VERY IMPORTANT "to me", when I read the manual and smart brake notice it came with, I could only find the English version!!! I then looked at the writing on the box!!! WOW the only thing that was not printed in English "ONLY", was the warning on the bottom of the box about the use of lead in the product, (obviously because our government legal system requires it to free them from liability). I for one get so peaved at looking thru manuals and turning packages to find the standard language of the country I live in and buy from, that I am pleased to see this and hope that Lew's continues this practice, after all if you buy it here to use here, and can't read English, how do know the laws, the rules, heck how do you expect to communicate in America, where it is our native language!!  THANKS LEW'S!!!

[Hooligan]

What job or career do you have where you cut dozens of frames apart for inspection. Sounds like a govt job like fda meat inspector. Shimano nor Daiwa make there bearings inhouse. Probably sourced from the same Chinese factory Abu Okuma and all the other makers get their bb's. Just as screws c clips and o rings are sourced out.

Incorrect. Both Shimano and Daiwa use exclusively Japanese made bearings in their reels with very, very few exceptions. In most cases, they grade higher than an average bearing, such as those used in most Pure Fishing reels because the tolerances are too loose. If you also consider the rolling resistance the ball precision, and the smoothness of the ball a d surfaces, they stand head and shoulders above. It isn't a petty argument, it's fact. I can also tell you that, regardless of what you feel, Lews standard bearing in all but their highest grade of reels are nothing approaching the quality of others. They, along with Pure fishing, were denied ISO rating on their bearings because runout was far too great.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't turning into a Shimano v Lews v Daiwa v Pflooger v Okuma. The discussion has turned to components and longevity. I've spoken with goose a number of times, not only about his reel, but others. It's a fair statement to say that his reel is nothing short of extraordinary. Yet, that's due in part to the care it has received as well. Not everyone is going to take care of their gear in the same capacity. I can tell you first hand that when I was sponsored by reel company A, I had nearly triple the reels ordered in one twelve month period as I would have with reel company B. not because the frames broke or bent, not because the AR went bad, or even because the retrieve sucked. In most cases it was simply that the casting accuracy and ability had diminished very rapidly- that's due to bearings more than any other factor. Argue all you'd like but the facts say otherwise.

In response to what I do, I work in R&D/engineering amongst other things that I do for the company I work for. I'm not at liberty to divulge that because I do not represent my company here, only my thoughts and information I have gathered in those processes. In regards to the cast aluminum versus duralumin gear- huge difference between the two. Some companies say duralumin or alloy drive gear and that's fine. But know what it is. Two dissimilar metals can, and will, react with one another. Be it excessive wear or corrosion. It can and does happen. Again, a large difference in the quality of a brass drive gear, and a machined and polished brass drive gear. Not all are created equal. Pure reels that do not use Xcraftic, for instance use a stamped gear. Lews uses a stamped and polished gear on reels above the 200 price point. Shimano uses a machined and polished gear in most casting reels. Daiwa is the same. What difference does it make? A lot in terms of longevity and how smooth that reel is over time. Micro cut gears? Only one company does that. Lastly, voids in a reels frame do cause failure. It causes a weak point and as the tendency to add stress and torque on the frame. In some cases not enough to notice. In others, it has been enough to oblong the spool side bearings.

One last, last, thing. Engineering and design in reels accounts for a tremendous amount. I fail to see how the Curado and Chronarch have been cheapened up, or corners cut. Much as I fail to see that the Zillion has been cheapened, or how the Lexa is a cheap reel. Stuffing more beari vs into a reel does not a better reel make. If that's the case, the Core must be he worst reel on the market. I mean, it's only got five bearings which is as much as the Citica D, so the D must be just as good as the Core, right?

I had more to say, in regards to another post, however will not because I know it would be edited and I shouldn't have said it in the first place. What I will say, however, is that I'm amazed at how short sighted we can be.

Anyhow, long rambling response to try to address some of the things that were directed back at me.

[Jrob78]

I've always been under the impression that when a company puts 9, 10, 11 bearings in a $80 - $100 reel, it's for 2 reasons.  It's intended to make people think it must be a quality reel.  It appeals to the 'higher the bearing count, the better the quality' crowd.  The other reason is your tolerances and fit don't have to be as precise if you slap in a bearing at critical areas. 

[0119]

The last place I would look for a gauge of anything is a "pros" boat.  The old greenies were/are an exceptional reel period.  See any being used? No I dont but I live in a 3 county area where Im probably one of 3 casting reel users.  Yet how long will they be used?  SHimano doesnt have parts available so...... what is its future.  According to folks much more in the know than me, at AT's site, no bearings used by manufacturers are made in Japan.  Even the 'amazing' Boca Bearing is made in China.  I was not talking about JDM reels Maico, but reel manufacturers in general.  Im not toting the Revo, not at all, Im blaming all manufacturers for what I see as a market full of junk.  Cheapened like Capt Bob says, but I claim every reel out there made in recent years is just that, junk, no matter its maker.

[J Francho]

What job or career do you have where you cut dozens of frames apart for inspection. Sounds like a govt job like fda meat inspector. Shimano nor Daiwa make there bearings inhouse. Probably sourced from the same Chinese factory Abu Okuma and all the other makers get their bb's. Just as screws c clips and o rings are sourced out.

 

I'm not a sponsor here, but I also run a reel repair business.

[0119]

Huh?  Thats was directed to Hooligan who said he has cut into the frames of so many reels at his workplace, inspecting voids.......   Sounds like a fascinating job, I'm curious who would employ someone to do that.  Like a govt inspector measuring inches of fat on steak or a govt scientist determining the average number of seeds on the outside of a strawberry it seems like an obscure career.  Is Underwriters Laboratories concerned with a safety issue concerning the integrity of fishing reel frames?  All meant humorously please take note.

[skeletor6]

Huh?  Thats was directed to Hooligan who said he has cut into the frames of so many reels at his workplace, inspecting voids.......   Sounds like a fascinating job, I'm curious who would employ someone to do that.  Like a govt inspector measuring inches of fat on steak or a govt scientist determining the average number of seeds on the outside of a strawberry it seems like an obscure career.  Is Underwriters Laboratories concerned with a safety issue concerning the integrity of fishing reel frames?  All meant humorously please take note.

 

Hooligan has tested and fished more gear than probably anyone on this site. Not only that, he is harder and extremely demanding on his equipment.He is cutting into frames because he wants to find the most durable, reliable and effective equipment out there. There is a reason why every contribution of his is in great detail and why he knows everything from the manufacturing processes/locations to the integrals of reels from every manufacturer. It may sound crazy to you, but if you depend on your equipment at such a high level, you are going to want to know everything about it and you are going to want to know that it is reliable and consistent across the board. 

 

If Shimano/Daiwa started to cheapen up and downgrade their equipment he would call them out on it and change his gear. It is one thing to fish a few reels and go off of subjective preference, but its another thing to break a large sample of reels down to their components, find the source of manufacture of their components and rigorously test the products to simulate the harshest of environments. Personally, I enjoy the contributions of his and his willingness to share this information to recreational fishermen like me and many others on this site. Search posts of his and you will find solid information across the board. The mockery of his contributions is uncalled for. Members should feel free to share their information and contribute without people making "humorous" jokes about their processes..

[0119]

No sense of humor huh? I sense you spend to much time in the federal lab counting seeds.  Honestly many have made jokes on this board.  So you dont like what i said in fun in my attempt to understand his statment. Thank you for being a moderator in proxy.  I think all these shimano vs the world conversations could use with a little humor.

[J Francho]

I think all these shimano vs the world conversations could use with a little humor.

 

Seems more like you against the world, sometimes.  See, I have a sense of humor.

 

No more personal attacks, guys.  Thanks!

[upnorthbassin]

I am curious to see pictures of catastrophic reel failures due to voids, etc. Voids in a very high stress part is obviously a bad thing...I certainly wouldn't want one in the frame of a .500 magnum revolver for instance. But how does that compare to a reel? Since this is the internet and I can go and see pictures of almost every single defect in anything imaginable, there should be at least a few hundred (if not thousands) pics of broken reels due to this too. If I had a $200+ reel snap in half under little stress I'd probably be pretty ticked off.

 

But seriously...how does this relate to actual use? Where is the patterned failure of parts made with one specific method or material? The proof is in the pudding. I'm not on any "side" here....I own plenty of reels made by Shimano and Pure and others too. I could care less who makes the next reel I buy as long as I like it. I just want to see some actual evidence instead of he said she said.

[Deleted account]

BPS, Cabela's, Dick's, Academy, Lews, Abu, Pflueger, Browning, etc...I'll never run out of parts for my old Pinnacles.

[Hooligan]

Up north- at no point did I say catastrophic failures were caused by voids. Frame voids decrease torsional rigidity and cause components to deteriorate more rapidly, far more rapidly than any of its counterparts.

Oddly, the only two catastrophic failures I've experienced firsthand with a reel have been Shimano reels. One was a Core 100MgFV that I broke the frame on, left side directly in front of the spool housing post and the level wind tie in; and a Curado 200E7 that I broke the foot in two length wise, and the fire portion of the foot cracked in two. The metal in that case had a very granular structure that was very unlike anything I'd ever seen prior, or have seen since.

[J Francho]

I'll show you a catastrophic failure when I get home tonight.  And it's not a cheap reel.