Fish Becoming Conditioned

[yoyoman]

Exactly roadwarrior. Anew type of lure never seen before is fooling them. An extremely accurate look of a small school of fish but even this has a certain look to it. All our artificial lures can only match the real thing so much. That is why I always been told to work a lure differently to try to change the action to entice that strike. I believe when they are on the feed though there much easier to fool. kind of like the humans that keep falling for the scams of free money over the phone. they just cant resist. If fish were not conditioned all lures would work all the time and fishing would be catching not fishing. In my opinion of course.

[slonezp]

Exactly roadwarrior. Anew type of lure never seen before is fooling them. An extremely accurate look of a small school of fish but even this has a certain look to it. All our artificial lures can only match the real thing so much. That is why I always been told to work a lure differently to try to change the action to entice that strike. I believe when they are on the feed though there much easier to fool. kind of like the humans that keep falling for the scams of free money over the phone. they just cant resist. If fish were not conditioned all lures would work all the time and fishing would be catching not fishing. In my opinion of course.

Do you eat everytime food is in front of your face? Neither do fish.

[FLcentral]

FLcentral, You mention the aftermath of a hot bite can go a month. Had it occurred to you that other changes may have happened causing the bit to slow down? Temperature changes, barometric pressure changes, more boat traffic, less boat traffic, the changes happening within the bass going from pre spawn to spawn to immediate post spawn, to post spawn, and how it relates to the baitfish going thru the same changes. I find is difficult to believe that a fish will put off eating because of being caught once or twice or a hundred times. Fish have to eat. I said in an earlier post, it is my opinion they grow wise. I do not believe it happens overnight.

 

 

The location I'm thinking of the fish school on the same bars over and over for 5 or 6 weeks. You can plainly see 3 to 4 inch shad jumping as bass chase them agressively. Throw out a shad imitateing plug and more often than not it will be refused. If you do find a lure that they will hit about 2 fish is what you'll get before they stop hitting. If you hit a day when they are very aggresive you may get a number of fish on a single lure. Odds are the next day the same bait may produce little or nothing.

Yor probably thinking this guy doesn't really know what he's doing but after 20 yrs of fishing this area I've seen it happen over and over.

I often catch more of these school fish by fishing under them with worms or other bottom bounceing baits.

So why do hungry aggresively feeding fish refuse lures that are carefuly designed to imatate a shad? Draw your own conclusions, but I'm convinced that heavy fishing pressure conditions the fish to avoid lures.

I agree that the correct lure selection can make all the difference. On a lake I use to fish a huge school of bass was busting shad on the surface. I went through all the usual topwater and sub surface lures in my box with out a bite before I realized the shad were only about 2" long. I pulled a white Crappie jig out of my box, tied it on a light rig and caught double digit numbers of bass from the same school.

[yoyoman]

Do you eat everytime food is in front of your face? Neither do fish.

you should see me! lol. I get what you are saying but l meant you wouldn't have to fool them anymore. When bass got hungry they would take almost any lure. Kind of like newly opened fisheries or ponds.

[slonezp]

RW, Are you implying the fish being caught on the a-rig are simply hitting it because they have never been targeted before and don't know what an artificial bait is?

[roadwarrior]

RW, Are you implying the fish being caught on the a-rig are simply hitting it because they have never been targeted before and don't know what an artificial bait is?

 

No.

 

The Rig looks and probably feels line a small school of baitfish that are lost.

 

Here's another angle: Suspended bass are difficult or almost impossible to target, especially if the are

in whatever a fish's equivilent is to sleep. Sometimes (often?) they are just not in the mood to feed. However,

when a school of bait invades their territory, all bets are off. 

 

To some extent the fish that are attracted to The Rig are the same fish targeted by big swimbaits. Mattlures

once described fishing his baits "out where they don't belong". So a big, dumb baitfish comes scootin' along

out in the middle of nowhere, but maybe that's exactly where Big Momma spends all her time. The big bass

might not be hunting, but maybe she won't pass up an easy meal. Maybe Speedbead will drop in and tell us

about those big bass he catches in PA. 

 

 

 

[DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only]

Well I am amazed about the amount of people who agree and disagree with me. This truely is a matter of opinion since no one can truely get in our nemesis's head. I, just like everybody else, can speak from my own experiences which are going to vary from everybody else experiences on their bodies of water. Whether or not the fish are conditioned, point of the matter remains, sometime the fish are there and aggressive and sometimes they are not. Whether you stick around trying different baits waiting for them to wake up/show up or move on to find more active fish that is up to you. The diversity of the sport and it's challenges are what keeps us fisherman "conditioned" to try and catch the biggest, the most, and our own personal best.

Jay-

[WRB]

You get way off topic when discussing targeting mid lake suspended bass using the deep water as a sanctuary zone verses bass being conditioned to ignor lures by bass anglers who normally fish within a casting distance from shore.

The big bass have always moved off shore and that should not be a mystery or new discovery. Before the modern electric trolling motor bass boat, bass anglers trolled a lot and Buck Perry created a presentation technique of trolling at controlled depths to exploit the suspended off shore bass populations.

The A-rig or umbrella or spreader rigs all started life off shore in salt water fishing to target suspended pelagic fish like tuna on the west coast and striped bass on the east coast and these rigs date back into the '50,s or earlier. Umbrella rigs with big swimbaits were secretly trolling in SoCal trophy bass lakes in the mid 80's.

Pickwicks WR SMB was caught trolling and my guess is today's bass anglers are trolling the A-rig to cover a lot of open water areas where big bass tend to locate. These bass haven't seen any lures very often, unless they move into or closer to shore. The other possibility is Florida strain LMB have been introduced into Pickwick. The A-rig will loose it's appeal as the bass get conditioned to it.

Tom

[dumfish]

I think fish do become conditioned by their natural instinct for survival, the question is, do they pass these instincts to their offspring through the gene pool.

[Bass Junkie]

I believe bass have the ability to learn simple behavior changes... bass fishermen, not so much.

 

oe

There is so much truth in this statement. Fish absolutely can be conditioned to lures. Not all types, however, have as many stimuli that result in conditioning. While a Rat-L-Trap or spinnerbait produce multiple strong stimuli, (i.e. Vibration, rattles, rhythmic flash,  etc.) a lure such as the Senko has quite a bit less in the way of strong stimuli. They are soft, fall slowly and erratically, and are over all a very subtle lure, henceforth making them harder for fish to "pattern". This can explain why bass seem to respond to finesse baits better under heavy pressure. Most finesse baits are small, subtle soft plastic baits that are fished either very slowly, or very erratically, and produce the same set of stimuli that the Senko does. It can also explain the success rates that can be found by fishing lures in a manner different to the conventional or standard. 

[Sam]

Glen Lau and Homer Circle did the first studies on largemouth bass behavior and produced three of the earliest videos on the animal:

Bigmouth

Bigmouth Forever

The Feeding Habits of Bass

 

These three productions formed the ground work of what we know about the species and the science of the fish and its behavior.

 

Many baits catch the eye of the bass fishermen. The bass may or may not relate to a type, sound, profile or color of a specific bait.

 

One of the intresting things Lau and Circle noticed was that when a bass boat ventured along a stretch of bank with the trolling motor the larger females would hide in the structure.  The big ladies somehow associated the trolling motor noise with being caught.

 

This is why many of the old bass fishermen do not use their trolling motor unless they have to and VanDam says to leave the motor run as by pulsating it can cause the bass to react in a negative manner. Take your choice of philosophy.

 

So do bass remember baits?  Probably not.

 

Can a bass become conditioned to a specific bait? Probably not.

 

What we do know is that your presentation and technique will cause the bass to either 1) eat your bait; 2) try to kill it; or 3) ignor it.

 

Your challenge is to find that bait that will cause the bass to eat it or try to kill it. And everyday is different.

 

One day they want a fast moving bait; the next day they want it presented slow. Or the want noise or they want a silent bait.

 

It is part of the bass' harrassment program and they do a very good job with it!!!

[Shoop05]

I don't think they are conditioned to the bait as much as the presentation. Bass don't really eat the minnow or shad that swims normal, (like most guys retrieve their crankbaits or spinnerbaits), it's the guys that do something different to the bait that get bit. Erratic retrieves, etc. Also, a lot of times guys fish it too fast or slow. It's great to think that we can pick up a fast moving bait and bust bass every time. That just doesn't work. Then we have to slow down and we have 1 of 2 ways to effectively work vertical baits, either as natural as possible, or so erratic the fish can't stand it, or don't have time to see it.

[WRB]

Do you know what the hottest artifical lure ever made was?

It's not a soft plastic of any kind, it was the Finlander lure known as the Floating Rapala. This lure hit our shores in the late 50's and caught every type fresh water sport fish across North America! The original came in one size (F11) and one color; 4 3/8"long and silver foil with a black back.

The original floating Rapala didn't cast well with bait casting, but trolling was popular and mono line was just coming into it's own. The tight flashy natural swimming wiggle action mimic a live baitfish like no other lure before it. Amazing lure that bass will still strike today if you use it! It took about 15 years until the bass became conditioned to Rapalas and new sizes and colors were made to continue it's appeal....to anglers! Bass still like the original F11 because few have seen one today.

I fish hair jigs with custom pork rind trails for the same reason, few of the bass where I fish ever see them, unless they see mine, and yes they still work as good today as they did 50 years ago.

Knowledge isn't passed on through the genes, the ability to learn is. Don't confuse instinct with learned experience. You can't teach a non bird dog to hunt like a breed with with hunting instinct, they are hard wired to hunt and some are better then others.

Tom

[Snakehead Whisperer]

Do you know what the hottest artifical lure ever made was?

It's not a soft plastic of any kind, it was the Finlander lure known as the Floating Rapala. This lure hit our shores in the late 50's and caught every type fresh water sport fish across North America! The original came in one size (F11) and one color; 4 3/8"long and silver foil with a black back.

The original floating Rapala didn't cast well with bait casting, but trolling was popular and mono line was just coming into it's own. The tight flashy natural swimming wiggle action mimic a live baitfish like no other lure before it. Amazing lure that bass will still strike today if you use it! It took about 15 years until the bass became conditioned to Rapalas and new sizes and colors were made to continue it's appeal....to anglers! Bass still like the original F11 because few have seen one today.

I fish hair jigs with custom pork rind trails for the same reason, few of the bass where I fish ever see them, unless they see mine, and yes they still work as good today as they did 50 years ago.

Knowledge isn't passed on through the genes, the ability to learn is. Don't confuse instinct with learned experience. You can't teach a non bird dog to hunt like a breed with with hunting instinct, they are hard wired to hunt and some are better then others.

Tom

x2

[J Francho]

I had an awesome conversation with a biologist last night.  He basically shot down my logic, and stated that the neuro pathways for a negative response are totally different than those of learned hunting skill, or social behavior.  Makes sense.  His example was great.  Imagine a whopper as your favorite food.  You learn to just automatically order it, but that took time, and you have to find the Burger Kings in your area.  Now, imagine someone unexpectedly pricking you with a pin.  Your response is automatic, you instinctively move away from it.  Now, I realize that human physiology is a lot more complex than a bass', but the two extremes hold true - different pathways to the brain.

 

Whether this answers the original question, I don't know.  It's up in the air, still.  I do think fishing pressure changes the game, more so on smaller waters.  Whether that's stress on the fish, the environment, or they learn not to bite, no idea.

[Paul Roberts]

Bass can defintely learn. And they can become more difficult to catch after being exposed to angling. There are quite a few studies that have shown this. And each individual fish in a group does not need to be pricked to learn that something is "not food". They can observe other fish sample and reject and get the message. If you doubt that fish can get wary of angling, all you need do is fish a pond (or trout stream) that's NEVER been fished before (no small order nowadays). It's shocking how "stupid" the fish are. Also, read the relevant sections in "Knowing Bass" by Keith Jones. In short, at Berkley, the bass in test tanks learn really quick what is "not food" and they must be replaced regularly so as not to skew test results. Add a sharp poke to that and … I would suspect that the message is that much stronger, even negative, at least for a time. According to Jones, as I remember it, bass could “remember” a lure as dangerous for up to a couple of months. And realize, not all individuals are the same; Some learn quicker and probably hold on to it longer. Whether this “remembering” is "learning" or  classic “conditioning” I'll leave to others to decipher.

In the wild, things are MUCH more complex, that is, way fewer variables can be controlled for. We’re not talking indoor climate controlled laboratory tanks anymore. All the things that go into the "decision" a fish makes in striking a lure -competition, aggressively feeding, visibility (weighs huge), etc… would suggest that a fish fooled by a common lure is no evidence for conditioning either way.

 

That said, I have seen things that tell me that fish in the wild can learn that particular lures are either “not food” or worse. The question though is, for how long? A couple examples: 

 

This is a common ploy I use... Run a particular lure through a pod of fish and catch 3. Then they stop biting that lure. Immediately switch lures and I catch a few more. Switch again.... I've done this on MANY different occasions. And I still use it. If I know I'm on fish I'll often have alternate lures rigged and ready to eek out more bites. Here's a  particularly good example of this:

I used to fish walleyes at night under schools of shad that were attracted to a light hanging off a bridge. It was a uniquely consistent late spring / early summer pattern and I would go every night. At first I'd KILL em. Then the bites would taper off. Shad were still there, walleyes still chasing them. But bites would erode. Then I'd switch lures and bam! Back in business. Once I got hip to this I'd begin the night with a row of crankbaits layed out before me and I'd go through each one, one by one, as bites eroded. And it worked like a charm. What was interesting was, some lures were more difficult for the fish to learn than others. Plastic fat plugs lost their charm quickest. Balsa floating Rapala's less so. The one lure it appeared they NEVER learned was a small soft plastic swimbait (this was way prior to the "swimbait craze"), the “Lil' Fishie”. I think the same might be true for bass –that some lures are harder to recognize as “not food” than others– like plastic worms and jigs.

 

Again, the question is, for how long do they “remember”, and we have to keep in mind that changing conditions with the fish as well as environmental conditions (esp visibility) weigh in huge. I’ve come to realize that, in the small public waters I fish regularly, visibility (lighting conditions) is one of the major factors relating to how willing bass are to bite chunks of plastic, wood, metal, and silicone. Let's face it, lures look pretty stupid MOST of the time. Just ask the fish. Lures have to do something special, at just the right times and places, to do us any good.

 

I can’t control when fish are in position to feed, I can’t control whether they are in high competition with cohorts, but I can often pick the best lighting conditions--the days and places--I fish. A lot of the time I’m just not all that keen on getting my butt kicked. This is one angler that can learn, albeit often the hard way. Maybe I've become conditioned to mowing the lawn on those brilliant blue summer days.

[grampa1114]

Well then...If I found a pin in my Whopper...I probably wouldn't order another one for a while but I'm pretty sure that I'd give them another try. But am I smarter than a Bass?

[J Francho]

Again, the question is, for how long do they “remember”, and we have to

keep in mind that changing conditions with the fish as well as

environmental conditions (esp visibility) weigh in huge.

 

I think the ice over period resets things for us up north.

[Paul Roberts]

I think the ice over period resets things for us up north.

Spoken like a true steelheader. They reset every night. What was it Lanny Waller said, "Be first, or be different."

[J Francho]

The old change-up works like the devil.

[slonezp]

Well then...If I found a pin in my Whopper...I probably wouldn't order another one for a while but I'm pretty sure that I'd give them another try. But am I smarter than a Bass?

If I found a pin in my Whopper, I'm going to be a rich man.

 

 

For the sake of argument, anyone been on a hot crappie bite using live bait only to have it slow down and then pick up again. The fish are still there, they;ve just changed their feeding habit. What of the possibility of disturbing the school is causing the slowed bite? Same with a school of bass. You pull a couple out of the school and the others become weary. Or catch and release a few and they go back and tell their buddies.....

[DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only]

Opinions are like .... Oh wait, I mean show me the facts.

 

 

Jay-

[Paul Roberts]

If you are really looking for "facts", you're looking in the wrong place.

[roadwarrior]

"Life experiences" are facts, but involve many uncontrolable variables.

For example, it's a "fact" that I catch bass every time I fish except when

I don't catch any!

 

 

[Paul Roberts]

"Life experiences" are facts, but involve many uncontrolable variables.

For example, it's a "fact" that I catch bass every time I fish except when

I don't catch any!

 

 

Yes. Well put.

 

As for your example ..LOL. Same for me! Must be true.