Fish Becoming Conditioned

[BassinB]

i dont believe i said "smart". I meant that I ASSUMED that bass were smarter than goldfish but in no way did i mean to imply that a fish of any sort were smart. It was relative statement. all i meant was that fish ARE without a doubt able to learn and that this was and is proven. I wouldnt even consider a dog as smart. only humans but that could be debatable with some. lol

That's why I said in a relative manner and put smart in quotations. I referenced carp in comparison to bass because goldfish are in the same family as carp.

But I do agree with you in that fish can and do learn, at least in a primitive way.

[SudburyBasser]

Conditioned? I don't know. There is a video on this web site from a biologist where he mentioned that after about 15 minutes a fish has essentially forgotten it was caught and you can catch it again. If a bass forgets its unpleasant encounter after 15 minutes I would think it would also forget the particulars of why it was caught. Then again, conditioning isn't purely a function of memory, or rather it's a more complex process than simple memory.

 

If I remember all that fancy book learning in university correctly, the conditioning that we're most familiar with is called classical conditioning -- that two stimuli are responsible for a response. That was what Pavlov did with his famous dog experiments -- he rang a bell (first stimulus) then gave the dog food (second stimulus) and the conditioned response was salivation. He then removed the second stimulus so that only the bell would cause the response.

 

Operant conditioning relies on behavior modification because of something happening and it seems to me that's a more likely conditioning (though OC would seem to rely on a mental process I don't know that bass are capable of) going on with bass if it is happening. The fish remembers the experience of being caught came as a result of whatever factors are present (seeing hooks, lures, line, etc.) and learns to avoid it.

 

There are many other types of conditioning but it's been about two decades and I can't remember all of them.

 

Personally, given the mental capacity of a bass, I'm dubious that any real conditioning is going on but I don't claim to be an expert.

[flippin and pitchin]

Where's the science ? I read a study provided by fish biologists for the University of Minnesota several years ago. Bass have a limited memory.  The stimulis that triggered memory was nerve based, like pain. Certain stimulis provided by certain lure types remained in the memory longer than others.  The lure type that fish would strike sooner after being hooked? The plastic worm.  No Noise, No large water displacement, longer slender profile bait.

 

Here's a thought that puzzles me.  I have heard or read from Bass Pros that bass will target a food source because they " know " it has a higher level of protien and or calcium, the crawfish.  Bass will target  blue back herring over a shad because the blueback herring has a higher concentration of fatty oils.  Bass must be pretty darned smart.

[yoyoman]

I found this article from abc science. there are a few i also found on some aquarium sites.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/01/14/2792407.htm

[Fishing Rhino]

What do you think? Can LMB really become conditioned to a particular bait? IMO I think no! I always hear people saying that bass become conditioned to a bait and they won't bite it. I wondered how is that possible with the little brain that they do have. It seems more possible that maybe they are not feeding no longer on the food you are imitating. Meaning you are throwing a blue gill bait but now there are more shad in the area and that is what they are feeding on at that time.

Hope that made since. What is your opinion?

 

Your supposition, highlighted in red is quite reasonable.  Then again, a few years ago, I was catching bass after bass, after bass on a Storm Wild Eyed Gobi.  The odd thing is that as far as I know there is not a Gobi within a few hundred miles of the pond I was fishing.  I say as far as I know, because to my knowledge this small pond does not have a single Gobi.

 

Then in one of my grand experiments, I combined a wacky rigged worm with one rigged straight on the same hook.  I nicknamed it the 747 because it looked like a plane.  The fish were all over it.  I could fish it slowly, or anywhere in the water column from the bottom to the surface, and they went after it.  What did that monstrosity look like to them?

 

It's one of the things that I like about fishing.  There are no absolutes, and we are only limited by our knowledge and our imaginations.

[bassguytom]

The U.S. Navy is training large mouth bass to swim up inland rivers and scout for terrorist and video any activity. The small Mouth bass will be running escort to take care of any native fish they come across. Now that's smart! But I really do think bass in my area get tied of seeing senko's and will hit something else more often when the season gets kicking.

[Brayberry]

My 2 cents  -Do bass get learn to avoid some baits? Yes (Crankbaits, Spinnerbaits, Buzzbaits)  Look at any high fishing pressure body of water and these are the first baits to start getting less bites

 

Do bass learn to avoid soft plastics?  No, Every twitch, drop, jump of the rod makes the spft plastic do something different and unique, in a new order.  Either the fish can't get accustomed to it or it takes much much longer

 

This is just my experience though and my personal belief

[DelfiBoyz_One_and_Only]

There are a lot of baits out there that really don't look like much to us. Who is to say what they look like to a fish. The Senko is a prime example of that. A Gobi could look like a million things depending on how it's fished. It reminds me a lot of a tadpole. My main point is I do not believe that fish can look at a lure and not eat it because they are use to it. I believe that if it looks like what they are feeding on when they are feeding on it, and has the correct action it will look like a meal to them. Then there is the whole reaction strike topic. Reaction is a uncontrolled response, how do they get conditioned to that? If people can't get a reaction strike then the fish must be conditioned to that too,no?

I believe the whole conditioned bass theory is a great marketing ploy to get you to buy the latest and greatest new bait. More power to you if a new never before seen bait gives you the confidence to catch fish, but for me I will just match the hatch with anything new or old regardless if people think the fish have seen it before.IMO lol

Jay-

[Snakehead Whisperer]

Lol awesome. Throw a French fry with a hook in it and see if they stop eating French fries!

Last year I was fishing with a friend and his kids. We were catching rock bass left and right on night crawlers. After about the 90th fish in an hour I started to get hungry and slightly bored (kids were having a blast, btw.) My friend offered some Chex Party Mix and a lightbulb went off in my head... I decided to put the Chex mix on a 1/16oz. jig head and try to catch some rock bass on it. They hit the Chex with reckless abandon and I started having fun again.

 

As far as bass being conditioned to lures, etc.... I believe that most folks underestimate the intelligence of animals in general. Life for a fish is no walk in the park. I admit that it's possible that a  full grown bass may have just been fortunate to survive through all of it's vulnerable stages in life and beat the odds, but my belief is that larger fish are cunning predators who are smarter than average. They grow to large sizes by being cautious and suspicious of their surroundings and the forage that they feed on. This is not to say that they are conscious of anglers, but I do believe that they can sense when something is not right and make a judgement call on whether it's worth the risk to eat a bait. Obviously they fall for artificial baits quite often, but I bet they pass on them just as often. Not saying that I have any evidence to back this up, but it's what I choose to believe for now.

[WRB]

Technically LMB.live about 12 to 15 years under ideal conditions and they are most aggressive as young adults between 2 to 3 years old and those are the bass most anglers catch. The more aggressive the bass is the more likely it will not survive more than 4 years in waterways with high fishing pressure. The bass that are genetically wired to be very wary and avoid predators live far longer and these are the bass that grow larger and older.

In time the aggressive strain of bass get removed form the ecosystem, fewer find each other to spawn and the population tends to become the less aggressive gene pool and harder to catch on artificial lures. Year classes have there cycles and tend to peak and bottom out about every 10 years do to lots of factors.

Bass are sight feeders and see your lure in great detail, even moving at high speed because they see movement in slow motion like we see an instant sports replay. They learn to avoid lures they were caught with, if they don't they will not survive very long. A change of color or size is often enough to get a response from the less wary bass. However you need to be more diligent to fool the older wiser bass most of the time.

To catch the larger bass you need approach them from a different angle quietly with lures that appeal them, not lures that appeal to you.

Tom

[FLcentral]

I agree with WRB. If Bass or other fish had no memory they would not reconize threats like Herons, Otters, larger fish and other hazzards. While this is more survival related than feeding responses it still shows they learn or become conditioned to negative experiences.

Down here in central Florida most all public warers are heavily pressured and a hot bite will become general knowlage within a week. Case in point when the bass school on shad for about a week they will hit many lures pretty well, after that boats will be on the spot before first light and right on the fish as soon as they show. They become very lure shy in the month that follows. Those that bite aggressively usiually end up fried so they won't be back to add their genes.

 

I have read a study that showed that bass don't become as conditioned to flexible types of artifical baits as they do to hard baits that produce a consistent sound or vibriation pattern.

 

I feel like it's always worth trying something different even if it looks a little goofy.

[slonezp]

FLcentral, You mention the aftermath of a hot bite can go a month. Had it occurred to you that other changes may have happened causing the bit to slow down? Temperature changes, barometric pressure changes, more boat traffic, less boat traffic, the changes happening within the bass going from pre spawn to spawn to immediate post spawn, to post spawn, and how it relates to the baitfish going thru the same changes. I find is difficult to believe that a fish will put off eating because of being caught once or twice or a hundred times. Fish have to eat. I said in an earlier post, it is my opinion they grow wise. I do not believe it happens overnight.

[Brayberry]

How many of us have fished lakes that the bite is great on weekdays, but slows way down on the weekends?  Bass can learn.  How many people have seen farm ponds with a feeder that goes off at set times, and just before the feeder goes off the fish gather around for a feast?  If bass only remembered things for 15 minutes, why did they congregate around the feeder?  They shouldn't have remembered it.  Maybe it's conditioning, learning, whatever, but I believe bass can remember experiences longer then people realize. What about when your on a school of fish, catching them on a Rc 1.5 Crankbait, on every cast, then suddenly they stop biting?  Why would you ever need to change lures, down size, change color?  Why not just sit there for 15 minutes if they won't remember the crankbait? 

[Fishing Rhino]

When it comes to survival, I believe that most survival reactions are hard wired into their systems when they are hatched, not learned.  Consider salmon, they did not "learn" the pathways to the sea where they mature, then return to the same waters where they were spawned.  Their "navigation" systems were already programmed.

 

None of their year class had ever made the journey, yet they are "wired" to not only follow their routes, but also when to start migrating, and then when to return to their hatching place. 

 

Can fish develop a "conditioned response".  Yes, they can.  A friend has a small manmade pond in his back yard.  He has koi, bluegills and small turtles in the pond.  He feeds them a commercial kibble.  He has a jar with the food on the dock.  When he thumps the jar on a piling, within seconds the fish and the turtles head to the dock to be fed. 

 

But these, like tides, are regular, timed, repeating, not random occurrences. 

 

My guess, and I'll admit it is just that, is that fish fleeing from the moving shadow of a wading Heron, or a flying Osprey are programmed to respond to that threat when they hatch.  Those fish whose programming is not wired properly will be easy picking for the Heron and/or the Osprey.  It's part of the process of natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc.  The "defective" tend to be culled from the gene pool first, reducing the chance that they will pass on the defect to their progeny.

[Bankbeater]

IMHO, I think that the actual fishing pressure on the lake has a lot to do with it also.  Bass are like anything else.  You have some that are smart, and some that aren't. 

[jhoffman]

Salmon ocean or landlocked in the great lakes imprint in the stream. More often then not they return to the exact stream of imprinting. There could be another creek 100 yards away and they wont run into it because they didnt imprint in it. Imprinting is I believe mostly related to smell. Those fish can smell and remember which creek they were hatched or stocked into. This is why the steelhead program is successful and they dont all just run over and up into the Canada waterways.

[senile1]

This is an interesting subject and one that has been discussed a number of times here.  There are scientific studies that seem to indicate that bass and other fish can be classically conditioned.  (An Internet search will pull up a few.  I've pasted one link below.)  Even creatures with very little intellect have been shown to have this capability.  How long that conditioning lasts is another matter.  However, when on the water it all boils down to figuring out where the bass are and what to use to catch them.  We can make educated guesses about why the fish aren't biting specific lures but we can never really know the tiny mind of the bass.  Whether they don't bite on a particular day because of weather, conditioning, lack of hunger, incorrect presentation, etc is all speculation.  Ultimately, we still have to figure out what lure will trigger the fish. 

 

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond/upload/Largemouth-Bass-Angling-and-Catchability-Mar-Apr-2006.pdf

[slonezp]

Lures tend to try and immitate bait. Shad, bluegill, tilapia, crawfish or whatever, How can a fish become conditioned from eating what it believes to be a natural food source? I believe a bass will not starve itself unlike a cat or a dog which is dumb enough to be picky and dumb enough to starve if it doesn't get its chioce of food. In defense of the dog, a domestic pet can get lost and it's natural instincts will kick in as a means for survival.

[Fishing Rhino]

Salmon ocean or landlocked in the great lakes imprint in the stream. More often then not they return to the exact stream of imprinting. There could be another creek 100 yards away and they wont run into it because they didnt imprint in it. Imprinting is I believe mostly related to smell. Those fish can smell and remember which creek they were hatched or stocked into. This is why the steelhead program is successful and they dont all just run over and up into the Canada waterways.

I can understand the scent factor on the return trip to the spawning grounds. 

 

But how do they know which paths to take when they make their first journey into the ocean.  Herring, alewives, much the same.  They are spawned, and then spend time in the waters where they were spawned, until they reach a certain point in their development, and they "know" somehow that it is time to leave the freshwater and head for the ocean.  And not only the ocean in general but to specific areas where they can develop to maturity, and make the return journey to the spawning grounds.

[wademaster1]

Slonezp, so we're calling a cat or dog dumb because of their food preferences in the same discussion that we're talking about bass eating hard plastic, shiny, rattling versions of their prey while its tied to a string with big hooks hanging off of it even though the bass has been hooked numerous times with said lure?? Hmmm, I'm thinking the cat and dog may be a little brighter than you're giving them credit for.......LOL

[J Francho]

Wait a minute.  Doesn't the very notion that a bass will learn to use certain structure and cover to successfully forage verify their ability to learn, or become conditioned?  I mean, we're only talking about one facet here, not biting baits.  If they can learn how to repeat positive results, then the opposite must be true.  A negative response must be learnable by them, or they'd fail to become successful predators.

[slonezp]

Slonezp, so we're calling a cat or dog dumb because of their food preferences in the same discussion that we're talking about bass eating hard plastic, shiny, rattling versions of their prey while its tied to a string with big hooks hanging off of it even though the bass has been hooked numerous times with said lure?? Hmmm, I'm thinking the cat and dog may be a little brighter than you're giving them credit for.......LOL

It's difficult to get a pet who is raised on tablescraps to eat dry food.  A bass on the otherhand is seeing a bluegill or a crawfish. This is what it eats. We are throwing baits that appear exactly as what it eats, or at least something which triggers a survival instinct.  FWIW I love dogs and hate cats.

[slonezp]

Wait a minute.  Doesn't the very notion that a bass will learn to use certain structure and cover to successfully forage verify their ability to learn, or become conditioned?  I mean, we're only talking about one facet here, not biting baits.  If they can learn how to repeat positive results, then the opposite must be true.  A negative response must be learnable by them, or they'd fail to become successful predators.

The OP is about being conditioned to a particular bait.

[J Francho]

OK, bass seem to have a preference for crayfish.  Why couldn't they learn a dislike for a chrome rattle trap?  I'm trying to see the logic of one side, to prove or disprove the other side of the coin.  I know from anecdotal experience sore mouthing just about every fish in noontime pond that you do have to change things up.  That lime green Senko ain't gonna cut it by July.  But that's in a relatively sterile "fish tank," a 20 acre pond, not a big lake.

[roadwarrior]

Very interesting....

 

This topic lends itself nicely to explaining a phenomenon occuring over the past two

years on the Tennessee River reservoirs. More double digit fish were caught on Pickwick

last year than cumulative in the entire history of the lake! I know of at least three 11+

weighed in tournament and a 14 1/2  claimed this year! Two weeks ago the winning 5 fish

bag came in at 35 pounds and change!

 

These kind of numbers sound like something from the lakes of the Big Four States,

not TN and AL. Three friends from our local BPS all caught their first DD last year

together with me. That was POWERFUL! I don't know how I got left out of the mix.

 

So what's going on? I think we are seeing "uncatchable fish" being caught. Dottie was

the perfect example: Never caught except on bed, during spawn. This behavior may be

characteristic of bass that never come in shallow, never chase and never eat anything

but minnows. Does this sound far-fetched?

 

Well, this is my theory on The Rig. Fishermen are catching fish that have never been

caught. Putting what appears to be a school of their favorite meal right in their face is

simply irresistible, they lose all their inhibition. Note too, many if not all of these bass

have been caught in what most would consider open water.