Swivel Instead Of Leader Knot?

[james 14]

I just picked up a pack of Spro 50# swivels. I forget what size number they are but they're pretty tiny and seem like they'll go through the rod guides...which brings me to my question. Would you advise against casting a swivel through the guides? I'm a little worried they might get scratched up.

 

Either way I'll tie a shorter leader if I have to. I trust a palomar on each end of the swivel more than I do any leader knot and these things are so small I doubt they'll change the action of the bait at all.

[ww2farmer]

Sure fire way to ruin your guides. Either learn to tie the leader knot, or don't run the swivel through the guides. A properly tied alberto knot between the braid and fluro has almost ZERO failure if you tie it right and are using a properly matched combo of braid/fluoro/rod power, and the reels drag set right.  50lb braid tied to 10lb fluoro, with a MH/fast rod , and the reels drag locked down tight is just a recipe for disaster no matter what knot you use.........just to give an example. The alberto knot is so rediculously easy to tie, and just about as bullet proof as it gets. So much so,  that I have to question anyone who says they don't "trust it" knot tying skills.

[rippin-lips]

+1 for the Alberto knot. Super simple to tie. I use #50 power pro with a 12 or 15lb sunline sniper fc leader. Goes right through my micro guides.

[SirSnookalot]

I do both, but use swivels the majority of the time.  Swivel numbers are not always consistent, you really need to eyeball the split ring to make sure it doesn't pass thru the rod tip.  Additionally not all rod tips are identical in diameter, the key is to purchase ones that will not go thru the guide.  The actual poundage rating is not nearly as important, 50# is plenty for most fish but they are small, I mainly use #7 or #5 cranes depending on my rod and #2 and #4 BB swivels, if my memory is serving me correct.  I see many people using barrel swivels not cranes, they don't fail too often on strength but they do not turn very well, basically they are just line connectors.

The alberto is an excellent knot, easier and faster than a bimini twist and maybe as strong.  As I do not even like a tiny alberto knot going thru my guides I use this knot sparingly for only certain species of fish like spanish mackerel, which will strike the swivel as as quick as a lure, best to use black and not silver if you are going to use one.  One negative to any line to leader connection knot is line twist using certain kinds of lures or bait, whether casting, trolling or drift fishing, BB swivels help but don't prevent.

[Sam]

What Sir Snookalot says.

Remember, you do not want to do anything to chip or scratch the inside of your rod guides.

Always take a Q-Tip and run in around all rod guides every few weeks to make sure there are no chips or cracks. If so, have the guide replaced.

The problem with swivels is that you now have two weak points along your line. One at each end of the swivel.

A lot of guys and pros avoid anything that will weaken the line or hinder the casting ability of the rod.

When I use a swivel on a Carolina rig I use two Palamor knots. Otherwise I don't use swivels.

Not to say that you don't need to use swivels. Some guys use them on the drop shot rigs to help reduce line twist.

If you do use swivels make sure they don't enter the rod tip's line guide and that you use a strong knot at both ends.

[OkobojiEagle]

 Would you advise against casting a swivel through the guides?

 

 

Yes

 

oe

[LgMouthGambler]

I would not cast them through the guides. Rather, if your leader is short enough, you may be able to cast with the swivel without it going through the guides.

[skeletor6]

However small the swivel is, I would not cast it through the guides. i would keep it outside the guides at all times. The alberto knot tied correctly should handle all of your needs. Still I try to keep the knot outside of the guides, because it still is knot going though the guides whatever way you look at it. This can be unavoidable with too long of a leader.

The metal surface of a swivel can ruin your guides and cause many problems and if you get a sharp section in your guides you can end up slicing your line up pretty good without even knowing. All good advice given above me!  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[james 14]

I currently use the alberto knot (or some version of it) and only thought about the swivel after seeing JVD do it on a show recently. When I saw how small the Spro swivels were I just wondered. I was already fairly certain of the answer. I've tested the alberto knot and it's strength can vary depending on how you tie it...and there are many versions. It ultimately comes down to what you trust and I trust a palomar more than the alberto. I trust 5 palomars over 1 alberto. I'll just make sure not to cast the swivel through the guide. Thanks for the advice guys.

[ww2farmer]

Really???  you can not be serious in saying you would rather trust 5 knots between you and the hook than two. I have used 50lb braid tied to 20lb fluoro with the alberto , on my H powered flipping stick with the drag locked down, punching mats and have hauled 5 and 6lb fish out with ZERO knot failure. If your having trouble with those knots holding, it's on you.......you can not be tying them right, or matching the braid/fluoro/rod properly. And IMHO that is hard to do, as I said before that knot is stupid easy to tie, and tie right. If it makes you feel better to have a swivel and extra knots between you and the hook, than to each his own, I am just telling you that a properly tied alberto shouldn't be giving you trouble, and I would much rather have that to join my leader to the main line than a swivel..........unless your doing things like drop shotting of fishng a weightless fluke that would cause alot of line twist.

[james 14]

I don't have a problem with the alberto knot failing...never said I did. I said I don't "trust" it. I test every knot pretty thoroughly before I use it and, when the alberto cinches down correctly, it's stronger than a palomar but it's very easy to get it wrong...say what you want about my knot tying skills which have been in use for over 20 years. A palomar is easier to tie and, for me anyways, is stronger a large enough portion of the time for me to prefer it over the alberto. This isn't to say I won't still use an alberto but the swivel will just be another tool in my arsenal.

 

With that being said...if I tie 100 palomars they will all be stronger than the one alberto knot a good portion of the time. Every new knot may be a new weak spot but those weakness don't add up. If something is going to break first it's going to be the alberto. Would you trust 5 swivels tied on with palomars or just one overhand knot? Considering the fact that my braid-swivel connection isn't going to break under any circumstance I'm weighing the difference between FC breaking in an alberto or FC breaking in a palomar. For me the choice is clear. You do what you want and try not to be so abrasive in the future when answering questions. Now, if you want to be helpful and have a separate conversation on the proper way to tie an alberto I'll show you about 5 different versions that I've seen and few of them will hold stronger than a palomar.

[ww2farmer]

We will have to agree to disagree then.As for me being abrasive.......thats the way I am. Like it or not, I don't care.

[SirSnookalot]

Most knots that are designed for fishing will hold just fine if tied properly, however some knots with specific line types may be better than others.  The knot that is easiest to tie and has given you confidence and success are the ones I'd be sticking with.  I personally do not use a palomar, it's an excellent knot I just fumble too much with it, I opt for some other knots instead.  I'm mostly a swivel user and my connections are pretty rock solid, as anyone I'm human and sometimes I make a mistake.  I use the identical knots in both fresh and saltwater.

[J Francho]

Just put a 6mm plastic bead on the line before the swivel, and you'll never damage the tip top guide.

[Arv]

Gotta agree with everyone here. I would never cast a swivel through the guides.

[SirSnookalot]

Just using a large enough swivel and being aware is all that's needed.  Even when I'm fishing without a swivel I'm aware of where my knot is and prefer it not going thru the guides, so my leaders are relatively shorter.  Not that the knot is doing any harm but I don't care for the " feel" of it, changing leaders when necessary to me is an effortless process.

[new2BC4bass]

I've tested the alberto knot and it's strength can vary depending on how you tie it...and there are many versions.

 

Are you counting knots tied with a different number of wraps as a different version?  I thought there was only one version of the Alberto Knot.  Course I've only looked at a few Online samples of how to tie it.  People make one change to a knot and it becomes a different knot.  Take the Fish N Fool Knot.  Simply a Uni Knot run thru the eye twice before wrapping.  Now it is no longer a Uni Knot.

 

I personally vary the number of wraps I use for the Alberto Knot depending on the types of lines, and the poundage being used.  Far as I know that doesn't change the name of the knot or constitute a different version.  I'd be interested in seeing a few of the versions out there for the Alberto Knot.

 

I have to agree with the others.  A properly tied Alberto Knot is a super strong knot.

[james 14]

Yes, different versions but not what I would call different knots. I've seen varying number of wraps, versions with the wraps overlapping, some with the first wrap above and the second below, some the opposite of this and versions of each running the tag end out either possible direction. You can also throw in a few variations telling you which line to pull on to tighten the knot down. I don't think it matters how you pull on the braid but the leader HAS to be pulled by both the tag and main line. Pulling on either one causes the leader to slip inside the knot a weakens it. Once the braid is tightened down fully I'll pull just the main leader.

 

The problem I have with the knot (question my knot tying skills all you want) is that the wraps don't always cinch down evenly or smoothly. And it's the smoothness that bothers me...especially when using FC as my leader. Even if it's not perfect it's still a strong knot and I've had no problems using it. When it's perfect the palomar on the hook will break first. I've actually started doing more what Aaron Martens does which is an Albright with about 20 wraps that go down instead of up. This cinches down more smoothly and consistently than having wraps on top of wraps. I've also been using a variation where I make a loop in the end of the FC rather than just folding it over...creating the same variation that distinguishes the Fish-n-fool from the Uni. I haven't tested this one yet, however, but I imagine it to be stronger. I'll get to that in the next couple of days and post on it. When any of these knots fail it's not the braid slipping but rather the leader and I aim to prevent that with this variation.

 

I didn't start this thread to bash the alberto or question it's effectiveness. I've never had it break except for one time when I got a drop shot hung on a brush pile with an 8lb leader. I've caught everything from bass to a 35" snook this past summer (even if my drag was set to about 2lbs). I was just curious about these new micro swivels I ran across. Like I said I was pretty sure of the answer but I don't use swivels very often so I thought I'd ask...especially since these things are actually smaller in diameter than I knot I'll use to tie them on with.

[SirSnookalot]

I don't know what swivels (micro)you are talking about, but I have bought some of the smaller Chinese BB swivels that have a high poundage rating.  The only flaw I've noticed so far is that I have cut by accident one of the rings, total user error by trimming it too close.  The metal doesn't seem to be as hard as with other brands, but no problems with strength.

[J Francho]

I was just curious about these new micro swivels I ran across.

 

I use Blackbird micro swivels, two actually in the terminal rig, for my steelhead/trout float fishing.  They do pass through the guides without issue, but will hang on the cast.  They are tiny, and can be cut with scissors easily.  Thankfully, no fish I've ever caught owned a pair of scissors.  They are rated up to 25 lbs, IIRC.  The fish I catch are in the 10-20 lb. range, and I've never had one fail.  You'll break a leader first.  BUT!  Keep in mind, I'm using a 10-15' light power, slow action rod.

 

http://www.redwingtackle.com/

[SirSnookalot]

Size wise Bill Fisher #10 swivels at 100# test, so small I threw them out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEA-STRIKE-BILLFISHER-CRANE-BARREL-SWIVELS-SZ-10-100-PK-NIP-1490-/130801736069?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e74641985