Why Are There So Many Knots For Fc Line?

[WRB]

This is my first post in this forum and I am sure there are several threads on FC line and knots. FC being fluorocarbon filament line as opposed to monofilament line, including copolymers and hybrids.

No other line in the history of bass fishing has had a greater impact on knot development. With mono most bass anglers had good knot tying success with simple knots like a clinch knot or a Palomar knot. When these same angler switch to FC line they experienced knot failures, starting the knot wars.

My experience with FC line dates back to the early 90's. Aaron Martens was a local tournament angler back then and he introduced me and others to Sunline Shooter FC line and suggested the San Deigo jam knot. Both the FC line and SDJ knot worked good, however, like everyone else, I started to break off lures and bass occasionally. I have a habit of retting about ounce an hour or whenever I detect a line flaw because of the lighter test line we use in our clear water lakes. I resolved most of my FC line failures by going up in line diameter that equaled the mono lime I was familiar with using; Sunline Shooter 14 lb test was equal to 12 lb P-line CXX for example. This helped but didn't resolve the occasional line failure. So I started to experiment with a lot of different knots and line mfr 's.

What I learned; FC line cold flows more than Nylon and takes a permanent set after cold flowing. What this means is knots that cushion the main line where it exits the hook eye perform better than knots that deform the main line at the hook eye. However time under stress that cold flows the line where it exits the hook eye reduces the line strength more with FC line than mono line. When you test the knot strength within a few minutes of tying the knot it is stronger than testing it an hour later. Measuring the FC line within a few inches of the knot reveals the line is smaller in diameter than it was before tying the knot and testing the knot strength.

A good FC knot should cushion the main line, should not deform the line and remain tight without slipping and should always be wet when tied.

Most knot failures are not knot failures, the failure is at the line where the line exits the hook eye due to line stretch at that union. With most FC line today, the manufacturer has learned to up size the line diameter for pound test rating. I believe this is misleading, however there isn't an industry standard for line diameter verses pound test rating.

The bottom line; if you found a knot that works and a FC line mfr you are happy with, go fishing and retire often.

Tom

[roadwarrior]

I believe the 16/20, also known as a Pitzen and Duncan knot, eliminates the problem.

This knot is a "noose" without harsh pressure points. Try it for yourself:

http://www.orlandooutfitters.com/knots/knot.asp?id=12

[WRB]

I believe the 16/20, also known as a Pitzen and Duncan knot, eliminates the problem.

This knot is a "noose" without harsh pressure points. Try it for yourself:

http://www.orlandooutfitters.com/knots/knot.asp?id=12

That is the same as the San Diego Jam knot with a different name.

Tom

[roadwarrior]

Slightly different, you don't go through the bottom of the knot.

http://www.animatedk...imatedknots.com

p.s. I use the Jam for braided line.

[11justin22]

I recently started using flouro, I have always used the palamor on everything but didn't with florio because of the horror stories. Tried about half a dozen different knots over the last six months. Tried all the usual suggested for flouro and kept getting breaks. Tried the palamor and haven't broke since.....go figure. Knot everyone says not to use is the only one I trust. I do take my time though and make sure the loop is flipped up on top before I cinch it. Next best for me was the "shaw grisgby knot".

[Loop_Dad]

I believe the 16/20, also known as a Pitzen and Duncan knot, eliminates the problem.

This knot is a "noose" without harsh pressure points. Try it for yourself:

http://www.orlandoou.../knot.asp?id=12

roadwarrior, do you only go 3 wraps with this?

[roadwarrior]

5

The knot is pretty small. To my knowledge I have NEVER had a knot failure.

[Goose21]

I've only tied one knot all of my life, and Im curious what you all refer to it as. Switched over to flouro in the spring and just love it.

I run the line through the eye, twist 10 times, through the bottom loop, clinch a little, through the top loop and then clinch knot fully. Wetting the line prior to clinching is essential. Is this the palamor? I have no reason to switch to another knot as it's been nearly flawless -only breaking early on if I failed to wet knot thoroughly. I do it every time now.

[roadwarrior]

No..

Improved Cinch Knot

http://www.animatedknots.com/improvedclinch/index.php

[BASSHUNTER1961]

I believe the 16/20, also known as a Pitzen and Duncan knot, eliminates the problem.

This knot is a "noose" without harsh pressure points. Try it for yourself:

http://www.orlandoou.../knot.asp?id=12

This is a fantastic knot. Well, it's more of a wrap than a knot. It's basically an Alberto knot using one line rather then joining two lines together. If this knot fails, your tying it wrong.

[Loop_Dad]

What knot you guys use for dropshotting with FC? I am thinking this 16/20 might be a good one to use because it is small.

[Dwight Hottle]

Simple answer fc sucks. Fc causes more heartache & upset with average anglers that have bought into fc's supremacy over regular mono. I personally have quit using it. Maybe I'm old school but from my experience I can substitute braid & regular mono without all the hassles & still catch quality fish. The reward does not equal the hassle.

[WRB]

Any knot is only as good as the knot tiers skill. Like everything else with fishing it takes practice to consistantly tie good knots under fishing conditions.

I also agree that FC line is very difficult to consistantly tie a good knot with. So may factors to consider here is just 1; the size of the hook, clip wire, split ring, spinnerbait wire, lure eye, etc verses the diameter of the FC line has a major factor on knot strength. The smaller the FC diameter is verses the wire size being tied onto creates a condition where the knot slips under pressure. The ratio is about 3X wire size vs line diameter; .015D line or larger works OK with wire D of .045 for example, where .010D line starts to have slipping issue with .045D wire. The Palomar up grade for FC line is the double Palomar; 2 wrap over hand knot on the loop, instead of the standard single wrap over hand on the loop.

One of the strongest knots that ever tested was the original braid knot; a double line clinxh knot where you double the line like starting a Palomar knot, make the 5 twist like the clinch knot, put the double line loop through the gap next to the hook and pull the loop tight, then pull the tag end tight. This knot is messy, big and has 3 ends to clip off and works great on braid or FC line.

As I noted in the beginning of the thread why so many knots? By the time we are through there should be at least a dozen different knots that are used for FC, which proves the point that FC line can be a *****.

Tom

[.ghoti.]

Simple answer fc sucks. Fc causes more heartache & upset with average anglers that have bought into fc's supremacy over regular mono. I personally have quit using it. Maybe I'm old school but from my experience I can substitute braid & regular mono without all the hassles & still catch quality fish. The reward does not equal the hassle.

Amen, brother.

[rockchalk06]

I've only tied one knot all of my life, and Im curious what you all refer to it as. Switched over to flouro in the spring and just love it.

I run the line through the eye, twist 10 times, through the bottom loop, clinch a little, through the top loop and then clinch knot fully. Wetting the line prior to clinching is essential. Is this the palamor? I have no reason to switch to another knot as it's been nearly flawless -only breaking early on if I failed to wet knot thoroughly. I do it every time now.

Improved Clinch knot. I love that knot. Easy to tie, doesn't use up a bunch of line and I can tie it in the dark.

[SirSnookalot]

Only FC line I have used is 40# FC leaders, not leaders cut from a FC spool. It is a bit harder to get a good knot, I've tied as many as 3 or 4 times before it's perfect, once it's tied right have never been broken off, my knot is an ordinary clinch knot.

[APK62]

I believe the 16/20, also known as a Pitzen and Duncan knot, eliminates the problem.

This knot is a "noose" without harsh pressure points. Try it for yourself:

http://www.orlandoou.../knot.asp?id=12

Isn't that a reverse Clinch knot?

[MarkH024]

I don't quite understand why so many people have problems with FC line to be honest. Either I am extremely lucky or really good at tying my knots. I don't have very many break off's ever unless I get so hung up that I have no choice. SDJ and Palomar are the only knots I use.

Getting bit off.........well that's another story. Snakey pikes...

[Long Mike]

What's with all of the discussion? A properly tied Palomar works. Period. End of discussion.

[fishking247]

i never use fluorocarbon as my main line but the few times i used it as leader material in 15-30lb test for saltwater species such as false albacore, weakfish, and fluke (summer flounder) i've always used a standard clinch or palomar and never had the knot fail.

i prefer mono or braid as my mainline bass fishing. i gave fluoro two shots and both times i had it knot up on me and would snap in random places

[South FLA]

I notice FC in lighter leaders (less than 20lbs test) materials, as Dwight bluntly put it, suck! I will only use 25# or above for leader material, for example for t-rigging I use 50-65 braid tied uni to uni to FC leader and use a Palomar knot to hook/lure eye. Also try leader material is different the casting line, it has more abrasion resistance.

[BassinLou]

I have been using FC as light as 10lbs and only go up 15lb on freshwater outfits. I use it as the main line on BC and as leaders on my Spinners, and I honestly do not not understand the difficulty many are having with FC. If I knew the name of the knot I use I would gladly share. I have searched for its name with no avail. When tied properly nothing will break this knot. The only other knot I use is the albright knot to join lines together. The times my knots have slipped was solely due to my error. I guess what I am trying to say is find a knot you are comfortable with, master it, and go fishing. It's not the fault of good quality FC that the knot slips.

[Curved]

Trilene knot is what I use for FC. Double palomar for superlines. Double albright for joining lines.

FC knot tests at the bottom:

http://www.tackletou...wtrilenefc.html

[Mike L]

Isn't that a reverse Clinch knot?

No,

A Reverse Clinch Knot is another name for the San Diego Jam. [same knot]

The difference between that and the Pitzen is the tag goes through the top loop only of the Pitzen.

The tag of the SD Jam or Rev Clinch goes through the bottom loop first then the top.

That's why the Pitzen is much smaller.

Mike