Bad Back: Sit On Top Kayak Or Solo Canoe ?

[Jim McC]

Which do you guys think would be easier for a guy with a bad back, 55 years old, to get in and out of? I'm interested in the "Old Town" Pack 12 foot canoe. It has a flat bottom, and it is said to be very stable, from the reviews I've read. I also love the fact that it weighs only 33 lbs. I currently have a Lifetime Sportfisher 10' sit on top kayak, and it is rather difficult to get out of(especially). I have to return it because of a defect that developed. I'm also thinking that the canoe would be more comfortable while seated, and I could also stand to stretch periodically. Am I thinking right? Thanks for any advice.

[OkobojiEagle]

Jim... the solo canoe will be more comfortable to sit in once you're there (and you can raise the seat a little to make it more comfortable), but entering and exiting the craft would most likely be easier from a sit-on-top kayak. I wouldn't count on standing in a solo canoe either. My suggestions come from my experience... "your mileage may vary".

oe

[tomustang]

If you really had a bad back the answer would be neither.

[HeavyDluxe]

I'm trolling all the kayak/canoe fishing forums right now as I contemplate a purchase. I don't have any back issues (yet), but at my size I'm concerned about balancing stability and performance with comfort.

There are a couple companies that make hybrid boats - the Wilderness Systems Commander line and Native Watercraft Ultimates being the two that I spring to mind. From everything I've been told, they are a really good blend of the open, stable feel of a canoe with some of the aspects of a kayak. Weight tends to be higher than the canoes you listed, though.

There are also fishing kayaks that have higher seats (Jackson's Coosa and Cuda and Wilderness's Ride series) which are supposedly much easier in that regard.

Bottom line, I think you'd have to try things to see what fits.

[Jim McC]

If you really had a bad back the answer would be neither.

Thanks for the help. Do you think I'm making it up? Maybe I should say "back soreness".

[Jim McC]

I'm trolling all the kayak/canoe fishing forums right now as I contemplate a purchase. I don't have any back issues (yet), but at my size I'm concerned about balancing stability and performance with comfort.

There are a couple companies that make hybrid boats - the Wilderness Systems Commander line and Native Watercraft Ultimates being the two that I spring to mind. From everything I've been told, they are a really good blend of the open, stable feel of a canoe with some of the aspects of a kayak. Weight tends to be higher than the canoes you listed, though.

There are also fishing kayaks that have higher seats (Jackson's Coosa and Cuda and Wilderness's Ride series) which are supposedly much easier in that regard.

Bottom line, I think you'd have to try things to see what fits.

Thanks. I know about the Commander and Ultimates, but the 30" width seems a little narrow, doesn't it? The SOT I have now is 36" wide.

[Darren.]

As an owner of a hybrid (Native Ultimate 12), I can say it is awesome.

I was a canoe fisherman before I became a kayak fisherman. My first yak was a sit on top and though I liked it, it wasn't of the stable-enough-to-stand-in variety so I made pontoons for it, but even that wasn't stable enough.

I was intro'd to the Native U12 and the WS Commander at a local Virginia kayak shop and found the U12 to be the best of breed - for me. I wanted something that gave me the storage, etc., that my canoe did, stability to stand up in, and all that.

For me the Native had (has, IMHO) the better seat between the two. I built a simple riser that lifts me up but doesn't compromise any stability. Makes it simple to stand/sit while on the water. The NuCanoe above looks pretty nice as well.

So I heartily recommend either Native's or WS's but strongly urge you to try before you buy. It is a personal decision so get as much info as you can before you jump on someone's recommendation, even mine.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

Thanks for the help. Do you think I'm making it up? Maybe I should say "back soreness".

Actually its good advice.

I live with 2 herniated discs low back, mri shows them quite nicely,, sciatica, numbness foot just missed 2 weeks of work cause of it but its not as bad as it sounds. Tried canoes ,yaks at a club just was not comfortable any of them.

I watched the vids and they seem calculated as they stand and dont realy see them walking front to back just standing in middle. This is fine for a bit of comfort Id say. The picture of the elevated seat if it was a bit higher would seem like a way to go. But the paddling would be a pain in the back so trollmotor for sure.

I went the inflatable route that goes together in sections so the heaviest thing is the size 24bat. maybe 40# added a seat and very comfortable can stand walk a bit 2-3steps but its moving around when need be stability not an issue at all. My kids come with me they can move around they 6&12.The set-up time though is longer it takes about 20-25 minutes to unpack inflate and be on the water.

[OkobojiEagle]

Not a kayac, not a canoe... but I offer you the most comfortable fishing platform you will ever experience... Creek Company's ODC 420 or similar model from Outcast! My favorite way to fish small water.

oe

[Loop_Dad]

Actually its good advice.

I live with 2 herniated discs low back, mri shows them quite nicely,, sciatica, numbness foot just missed 2 weeks of work cause of it but its not as bad as it sounds. Tried canoes ,yaks at a club just was not comfortable any of them.

I watched the vids and they seem calculated as they stand and dont realy see them walking front to back just standing in middle. This is fine for a bit of comfort Id say. The picture of the elevated seat if it was a bit higher would seem like a way to go. But the paddling would be a pain in the back so trollmotor for sure.

I went the inflatable route that goes together in sections so the heaviest thing is the size 24bat. maybe 40# added a seat and very comfortable can stand walk a bit 2-3steps but its moving around when need be stability not an issue at all. My kids come with me they can move around they 6&12.The set-up time though is longer it takes about 20-25 minutes to unpack inflate and be on the water.

Hey Q&S, this sounds like my story!

I'm managing my back with Yoga and other exercise, but I had a few episodes in the past and I do not want to risk it. I've thought about Kayak first, but sitting in 'L' shape long time didn't look like it will work for me. I've looked at NewCanoe too. Better seating than Kayak, but heavier than kayak. I've also looked at Sea Eagle pontoon. I liked that one but decided not to go with it because that was one man craft. I wanted to be able to take my daughter with me. I finally went with Intex Mariner 4. My set up time is about 30 minutes.

[Jim McC]

As an owner of a hybrid (Native Ultimate 12), I can say it is awesome.

I was a canoe fisherman before I became a kayak fisherman. My first yak was a sit on top and though I liked it, it wasn't of the stable-enough-to-stand-in variety so I made pontoons for it, but even that wasn't stable enough.

I was intro'd to the Native U12 and the WS Commander at a local Virginia kayak shop and found the U12 to be the best of breed - for me. I wanted something that gave me the storage, etc., that my canoe did, stability to stand up in, and all that.

For me the Native had (has, IMHO) the better seat between the two. I built a simple riser that lifts me up but doesn't compromise any stability. Makes it simple to stand/sit while on the water. The NuCanoe above looks pretty nice as well.

So I heartily recommend either Native's or WS's but strongly urge you to try before you buy. It is a personal decision so get as much info as you can before you jump on someone's recommendation, even mine.

The Native 12 does look nice. So there's no need to be concerned that it's only 30" wide? Why would getting in and out of the Native 12 be any easier than with the Pack 12 canoe(flat bottom) I spoke of earlier?

And thanks, but I am not interested in anything inflatable.

[Darren.]

The Native 12 does look nice. So there's no need to be concerned that it's only 30" wide? Why would getting in and out of the Native 12 be any easier than with the Pack 12 canoe(flat bottom) I spoke of earlier?

Jim, the interesting thing about the Native is the pontoons in the hull. I didn't believe it until I tried it myself, but they are amazingly stable and create a suction, if you will, on initial stability, then the secondary stability kicks in and wow.

This isn't to say the right person can't tip. I just haven't yet. I'm only about 5'7" and a wee bit overweight and have no issues.

As for the Commander. Wilderness Systems, so as not to copy Native, reversed the pontoons on the hull. So they come inTO the hull, shaped toward the inside of the boat while the Native pontoons are concaved down into the water.

Both are extremely stable, just different designs. As I mentioned, you'll want to sit in these at a kayak shop if at all possible.

As for getting in/out of the pack canoe, I'm really not sure. My canoe was a 16' aluminum Grumman, I didn't have a pack canoe. But I did look at canoes before going kayak.

The seat in the Native is amazing, and IMHO, better than the Commander. The Commander, though, does have a perch you can sit on which elevates you up. You flip the seat back down and sit up. The Native seat is called First Class, and it is exceedingly comfy. You can either purchase a foam block riser from Native, or build your own (as I did) which elevates your entire chair.

Now as for getting in/out. These hybrids sit lower to the water, which is where the interbreeding of kayak + canoe comes in to play. Kayaks are lower, but canoes offer more storage and such. So your gunnels will be lower on the yak than the canoe.

I'll respond to your PM as well. If weight is a concern, Native makes a 35 +/- pound Ultimate, but it's rather pricey.

[Goose52]

It's great that some of the kayaks with elevated seats, and the new hybrids, are now giving more seating options than the traditional kayak "L-shape." I've had back issues for the past 25 years or so and can't handle that feet straight out position for very long. That put me in a canoe that has a more traditional "chair" seating position with knees bent. I've been on the water as long as 9 hours, seated, in my canoe. Once I put the outriggers on it, I now stand nearly the whole time I'm on the water - my back handles standing a lot better than sitting.

As far as getting in and out of the canoe, I push the canoe into the water, leave the bow beached a bit, and using my paddle for stability, step over the foredeck and into the bow of the canoe - then another step to the standing/seating area. Egress is mostly the reverse but if the bow is pretty steady on the bank, I'll step up on the foredeck, then onto the bank. Depending on where I launch and land, I usually stay completely dry for the whole trip. At least for now (I'm 60) I still have good enough balance so ingress/s/egress is not a problem.

Anyway, the good thing is whether it's a yak, hybrid, or canoe, there's now lots of options for the "back-challenged" folks out there...

[HeavyDluxe]

Jim, the interesting thing about the Native is the pontoons in the hull. I didn't believe it until I tried it myself, but they are amazingly stable and create a suction, if you will, on initial stability, then the secondary stability kicks in and wow.

+1

[Jim McC]

Jim, the interesting thing about the Native is the pontoons in the hull. I didn't believe it until I tried it myself, but they are amazingly stable and create a suction, if you will, on initial stability, then the secondary stability kicks in and wow.

This isn't to say the right person can't tip. I just haven't yet. I'm only about 5'7" and a wee bit overweight and have no issues.

As for the Commander. Wilderness Systems, so as not to copy Native, reversed the pontoons on the hull. So they come inTO the hull, shaped toward the inside of the boat while the Native pontoons are concaved down into the water.

Both are extremely stable, just different designs. As I mentioned, you'll want to sit in these at a kayak shop if at all possible.

As for getting in/out of the pack canoe, I'm really not sure. My canoe was a 16' aluminum Grumman, I didn't have a pack canoe. But I did look at canoes before going kayak.

The seat in the Native is amazing, and IMHO, better than the Commander. The Commander, though, does have a perch you can sit on which elevates you up. You flip the seat back down and sit up. The Native seat is called First Class, and it is exceedingly comfy. You can either purchase a foam block riser from Native, or build your own (as I did) which elevates your entire chair.

Now as for getting in/out. These hybrids sit lower to the water, which is where the interbreeding of kayak + canoe comes in to play. Kayaks are lower, but canoes offer more storage and such. So your gunnels will be lower on the yak than the canoe.

I'll respond to your PM as well. If weight is a concern, Native makes a 35 +/- pound Ultimate, but it's rather pricey.

Thanks Darren. I tried to send a PM back to you, but it won't allow it. I have no idea why. Do you think the 350 lb. capacity rating is realistic, because I weigh about 235? With the standard seat setup, about how high off the floor is the seat bottom? Why did you raise your seat higher?

[tnriverluver]

20 year bad back sufferer here. Herniated L4-L5 with 5 bulging disc currently. I looked at yaks and ultimately went with the boat in my profile due to the fact I can easily install whatever seat I need. I have purchased highback Tempress seats (not pictured) and must say they give great support and are by far the most comfortable boat seats I have ever used. My little boat has wheels made into the rear to easily roll it to where ever without the need to lift the entire boat at one time.

[Jim McC]

It's great that some of the kayaks with elevated seats, and the new hybrids, are now giving more seating options than the traditional kayak "L-shape." I've had back issues for the past 25 years or so and can't handle that feet straight out position for very long. That put me in a canoe that has a more traditional "chair" seating position with knees bent. I've been on the water as long as 9 hours, seated, in my canoe. Once I put the outriggers on it, I now stand nearly the whole time I'm on the water - my back handles standing a lot better than sitting.

As far as getting in and out of the canoe, I push the canoe into the water, leave the bow beached a bit, and using my paddle for stability, step over the foredeck and into the bow of the canoe - then another step to the standing/seating area. Egress is mostly the reverse but if the bow is pretty steady on the bank, I'll step up on the foredeck, then onto the bank. Depending on where I launch and land, I usually stay completely dry for the whole trip. At least for now (I'm 60) I still have good enough balance so ingress/s/egress is not a problem.

Anyway, the good thing is whether it's a yak, hybrid, or canoe, there's now lots of options for the "back-challenged" folks out there...

Goose52, what kind of canoe do you have? Length, width, etc. Thanks

[Goose52]

Goose52, what kind of canoe do you have? Length, width, etc. Thanks

It's a Radisson - 12 foot - VERY thin aluminum hull - 38" beam - 34 pounds. Good for still water, no good for streams or rocky places at all. Wide beam, but short - doesn't track very well, doesn't paddle very well. None of that mattered to me since I knew I was going to motor it. I thought the 38" beam was going to make it stable enough for me...but after a couple times on the water, I ordered the outriggers.

From the time I pull up to the lake, it takes me about 13 minutes to fully rig it - I was particularly efficient this morning and it only took 11 minutes. Modular - everything clamps, straps, buckles, and bungees in place relatively quickly.

Canoe purists mostly hate it. It's not really meant to be a traditional canoe...but a bass boat you can car top.... I stand up nearly the entire time I'm on the water - my back can tolerate that better than sitting for hours. Usually the only time I sit down is when motoring from place to place, changing baits, landing fish, eating lunch, etc...

[ClackerBuzz]

It's a Radisson - 12 foot - VERY thin aluminum hull - 38" beam - 34 pounds. Good for still water, no good for streams or rocky places at all. Wide beam, but short - doesn't track very well, doesn't paddle very well. None of that mattered to me since I knew I was going to motor it. I thought the 38" beam was going to make it stable enough for me...but after a couple times on the water, I ordered the outriggers.

From the time I pull up to the lake, it takes me about 13 minutes to fully rig it - I was particularly efficient this morning and it only took 11 minutes. Modular - everything clamps, straps, buckles, and bungees in place relatively quickly.

Canoe purists mostly hate it. It's not really meant to be a traditional canoe...but a bass boat you can car top.... I stand up nearly the entire time I'm on the water - my back can tolerate that better than sitting for hours. Usually the only time I sit down is when motoring from place to place, changing baits, landing fish, eating lunch, etc...

i have a 12' and 14' Radisson and LOVE them. I have no problem standing up and fishing in either and I don't have stabilizer bars. they have oar locks u can slip the oars into and paddle it like a row boat. i can blow other guys away that have a single paddle. and they help me get awesome angles on casts. i've been in a lot of kayaks and canoes and this one beats them all for comfort, speed, and lightness. as mentioned the hull is thin so no white water rafting near rocks.

Also search ur CL for "sportspal". different company, same canoe.

[J Francho]

Bad back? A pack canoe, like the Swift Pack 12. You use a kayak paddle, and the thing is very light.

http://swiftcanoe.com/packcanoes/pack12.html

[Gavin]

A solo canoe will be alot easier to car top due to its symetrical design and lighter weight...and you will sit a bit higher...add a web or a cane seat and a sitbacker for back support..A kayak paddle works really well with a solo canoe...I'd avoid the itty bitty 12' models like the Old Town Pack...had one years ago and I'm glad its gone..not much initial stability, but the secondary is pretty good. Sold that one...and got a 14'6" Wenonah Vagabond..good flat water boat...but not great in mild whitewater. My present solo canoe is a classic 14'7" Mad River from the mid-1980's..Floats great, but Its fiberglass, and I'm grinding the gel coat off on the river..Think I'll order a 15'4" Wenonah Wilderness this winter. The longer models track a heck of alot better, offer more stability, and they dont weigh that much more. Good luck with your boat search.

[greyleg33]

When I was a younger man I used to fish standing up in a 13' flat-bottom canoe. It took years of experience and a number of dunks, not to mention lost tackle.

[Jim McC]

When I was a younger man I used to fish standing up in a 13' flat-bottom canoe. It took years of experience and a number of dunks, not to mention lost tackle.

That's a ringing endorsement for NOT buying a canoe.

[ClackerBuzz]

When I was a younger man I used to fish standing up in a 13' flat-bottom canoe. It took years of experience and a number of dunks, not to mention lost tackle.

hmmm ru sure that was a flat bottom? i've been a 30yr old canoe like ur describing but it was a sears 13' fiberglass with a V-hull . it couldnt have been more than 25" wide and would almost tip while sitting. most newer canoes start with at least a 35"+ width and are flat bottoms. i think my radisson is 38"+ and i can literally walk around in it. i'd highly recommend borrowing a canoe AND kayak from friends. or buy one cheap/used this winter off CL. if you don't like it you can re-sell it in the spring for more than you paid for it. some fishing/hunting stores will even let you take them out on the water for a test. i also have a 9.5' perception swifty kayak (dicks sporting). my back gets sore, and legs cramp after 2 hrs... reason being i can't stand up, or stretch. i would choose my canoe over my kayak any day of the week.