Super User Fishing Rhino Posted July 19, 2012 Super User Posted July 19, 2012 I'm going to throw one more monkey wrench into this conversation. Can you depress your key into the switch a quarter inch or so? If you can, that "extra" lead on the switch could be to activate the choke on the motor. You should have some way to activate the choke, be it pushing the key in or a separate switch. Traveller is correct about the wiring of the kill switch. It should be in the ignition lead, not the wire from the battery. Even with the kill switch in the kill position, the starter can be activated an the motor will turn over, but will not start. On my rig, when the key is turned on, a beep will sound to indicate the engine is ready to be started. If the beep is not heard, it means something is wrong. It could be the motor is not in neutral, or the kill switch is in the disabled position. It may indicate other problems as well, but those are the two I have experienced. Your rig may not have the "beep, all is ok" feature. Quote
(='_'=) Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 thanx Traveler for your search!! i had the same problem though, it seems this boat is not as popular so there is not much info about it.... i didnt remove the harness completely... in fact, i just removed the key switch from the console, but i tried to not unhook any wire... apparently at one time something got unhooked by itself... and no, there are no wires going into the throttle control.... this control is very old it is still the one that has 2 shifting levers, one for Forward/Revers, and the other one for the speed.... but no wires come in and out of it... and Rhino, there is a separate button to activate the choke... and it is working properly.... and no, no Beeping sound on this boat... thanx!! Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 .....................no, there are no wires going into the throttle control.... this control is very old it is still the one that has 2 shifting levers, one for Forward/Revers, and the other one for the speed.... but no wires come in and out of it... OK Dan, that tells us you do not have a neutral cut-out switch on the throttle control to prevent starting the engine while it's in gear. At this point I don't understand why the two yellow starter wires would have female connectors unless the went to a terminal block, or, in-line fuse block; but I don't know why they (the yellow wires) would. Generally speaking, there should be a main fuse (20 or 30 amp) in series with a red 10 AWG +12v wire coming from the main cranking battery to a terminal block, or secondary fuse block under the dash someplace; that block would feed power to the key switch, and other switches such as the running lights, horn, bilge pump, etc. There should also be a black 10 AWG -12v wire coming from the main cranking battery to a terminal block that is used as a ground point for the same devices. I did run across a wiring diagram for another motor that may offer a basic idea of the subject, I'll see if I can relocate it. Cheers Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Dan, here are some diagrams I found that you may be able to deduce your wiring from, they are not for a 1977 but the wiring could be close. My belief is the two yellow wires went to a neutral switch; every drawing I reviewed for whatever year and/or hp has a neutral switch in the start circuit. Where is your start switch mounted? Also, here is a color code chart: http://maxrules.com/fixomcwiringcodes.html Quote
(='_'=) Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 thanx for the diagrams!! what do you mean by a "neutral Switch" ??? i will check the color coding, but i guess it wont be very helpful.... as i mentioned earlier somewhere, this boat was "fixed" before, by a boat mechanic in a small fishing town where spare parts were not available... so, you can see a red cable here, and trace it with the multimeter and find out the other end is blue, as if the mechanic didnt have a cable long enough and he had to use 2 cables of different color.... on the near future we plan on rewiring everythin, specially since any of the markers work, we already removed them from the console.... so we want to remove all the useless wiring, and make clean and safe electrical installation.... but that will have to wait.... we have to first make the motor run as it was before, and once we know everything is hooked correctly, we can begin removing useless wires and replacing old ones... Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 thanx for the diagrams!! what do you mean by a "neutral Switch" ??? i will check the color coding, but i guess it wont be very helpful.... as i mentioned earlier somewhere, this boat was "fixed" before, by a boat mechanic in a small fishing town where spare parts were not available... so, you can see a red cable here, and trace it with the multimeter and find out the other end is blue, as if the mechanic didnt have a cable long enough and he had to use 2 cables of different color.... A neutral switch is a safety device built into the gear shift system to prevent the engine from starting while in gear; it's required on all boats over a certain horse power. Given the age and unknown history of you boat I think it's safe to say all bets are off concerning the wiring. So connect the two yellow wires together if that operates the starter. The diagrams should give you some idea of how things should be wired, and your ahead of the game in that you know the boat ran before you started. I think your friend that disconnected everything owes you some beers Quote
Super User Fishing Rhino Posted July 20, 2012 Super User Posted July 20, 2012 The neutral safety switch is probably a micro switch that "breaks" the ignition circuit when the control is out of the neutral position. I'm guessing its a micro switch because the neutral safety switch in the diagram appears to have a "plunger" on the right side that will complete the ignition circuit only when the engine is in neutral. Again, I guessing that when that pin is depressed by the control (shift/throttle) only when it is in the neutral position. Same thing as on your car. If it's an automatic it has to be in park, or maybe neutral for the engine to start. If you have a standard shift, the clutch must be depressed for the starter to crank the engine. Quote
(='_'=) Posted July 20, 2012 Author Posted July 20, 2012 thanx!! well, since the throttle has no wiring attached to it, i guess we dont have a "neutral switch"... so, yes, i think we will just connect the 2 yellow cables together and let it be.... later on, when we have the boat up and running again, and hopefully after catching a few fish out of it, i will take the task of removing all the wiring and rewire everything new... when that happens i will be asking for a lot of help, the diagrams provided will give us an idea, but im sure more questions will arise at that time... fortunately there are a lot of people that have been helping me, i hope they have the same good will in a couple of months!!! Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 thanx!! well, since the throttle has no wiring attached to it, i guess we dont have a "neutral switch"... so, yes, i think we will just connect the 2 yellow cables together and let it be.... later on, when we have the boat up and running again, and hopefully after catching a few fish out of it, i will take the task of removing all the wiring and rewire everything new... when that happens i will be asking for a lot of help, the diagrams provided will give us an idea, but im sure more questions will arise at that time... fortunately there are a lot of people that have been helping me, i hope they have the same good will in a couple of months!!! We'll be here if you need us. As you've put so much time and effort into your boat I would suggest you order the correct Johnson manual for your motor before you start the rewiring, it will give you the correct wiring info and hopefully save you some frustration and electrical damage to your motor. Good luck and good fishing. Quote
Super User Fishing Rhino Posted July 21, 2012 Super User Posted July 21, 2012 It's possible the neutral safety switch is on the motor, somewhere along the shift linkage. It's possible some of the early electric start outboards didn't have that feature, but I cannot imagine that it took many years to correct that hazard. I had a 1971, 60 hp Evinrude. It had to be in neutral to start, if memory serves. The key switch was on the single lever remote control. Quote
Super User Sam Posted July 21, 2012 Super User Posted July 21, 2012 The guys writing above are the pros but I do have a suggestion to consider: Is your emergency engine cut-off switch in the "on" or "off" position? Something as simple as this can drive you crazy. Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 21, 2012 Posted July 21, 2012 The guys writing above are the pros but ............. LOL, Sam I have some bottom land I'd like to sell you. Quote
freebie Posted July 21, 2012 Posted July 21, 2012 sounds like you have a few things going on there. I will start with you ignition. you have the wrong switch for that motor. that motor harness has 6 wires in it. some may or may not be used. they go on the proper switch in the following manner. red wire goes to the B or + terminal, black wire goes to the M or - terminal, the black with yellow or white stripe goes to the big M terminal(this is usually a big round terminal that does not look like any of the others), the plain purple goes to the I or A teminal, the purple/white stripe goes to the C terminal, the yellow/red stripe goes to the S terminal, there may also be a gray and a brown wire in the harness also, the gray would be the signal wire for a tachometer and the brown wire would be signal for the overheat alarm. I hope this helps, more than happy to help with any other questions you may have. Quote
BKeith Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 If you have a 77 remote, I think freebie is right about the wrong switch. The 77 motor has CD ignition and must have a battery negative lug on the switch so you can turn the engine off once you get it started. Without it, the only way to shut it off is start pulling plug wires or chocking it down. The power packs have to be grounded out to shut if off, there are no electrical wires/cables you can disconnect to shut it off. You need to get a schematic for that model remote/motor and follow the voltage. Make sure you have battery positive on the bat. terminal and that it's going through the switch to the starter terminal, then make sure it's going through the neutral start switch to the starter solenoid. The other side of the solenoid has to go to battery negative (ground), if not, it's not going to energize. If the remote has a kill switch, make sure it doesn't have you grounded out. Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 i will check the color coding, but i guess it wont be very helpful.... as i mentioned earlier somewhere, this boat was "fixed" before, by a boat mechanic in a small fishing town where spare parts were not available... so, you can see a red cable here, and trace it with the multimeter and find out the other end is blue, as if the mechanic didn't have a cable long enough and he had to use 2 cables of different color.... As (='_'=) said above the boats electrical system has been reworked over the years... So all bets are off as to how things are wired; however, the boat did run with the current set up before the restoration work began. Quote
BKeith Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Regarless of the switch and electrical system, it's a very basic problem. He's gotta get voltage to and through the switch to the Starter terminal of the switch when held in the start position and to the starter solenoid. The other side of the solenoid has to be grounded. The easy way to check that is; if the solenoid has voltage on both small terminals, it's not grounded. If there is no voltage on either small terminal, it's not getting from the batteries positive terminal, to the solenoid. Which is what the switch and wiring is suppose to do so just follow the voltage. If he can't find the wire, just run another one from the switch to the solenoid. Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Regarless of the switch and electrical system, it's a very basic problem. He's gotta get voltage to and through the switch to the Starter terminal of the switch when held in the start position and to the starter solenoid. The other side of the solenoid has to be grounded. The easy way to check that is; if the solenoid has voltage on both small terminals, it's not grounded. If there is no voltage on either small terminal, it's not getting from the batteries positive terminal, to the solenoid. Which is what the switch and wiring is suppose to do so just follow the voltage. Correct... he's gone over this...... (='_'=) post #19 "now, in this picture there are 2 yellow wires marked with a red circle.... one of them is the one seen on the upper picture, the one on the switch.. the other one goes to the harness... with the multimeter, we managed to know that this other yellow wire is the one that feeds the starter... so, if i hook the two yellow wires together and turn the key, the starter will receive power... however, the 2 yellow wires have female connectors, so im not sure they were hooked directly... i think i can replace one of the connectors with a male, and match them, as i already know this will work.... however im not sure if im missing something...." Quote
BKeith Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 My first guess would be they went through a neutral start switch in the remote. I would think that even if an idiot did the rewiring, he would have still run them through a neutral start switch of some sort on the shifter so someone would not accidently start it in gear. However, I have come across some pretty big idiots over the years. Like a neighbor that put gasoline in a washing machine to get oil out of some cloths he spilt it on. I suspect the people in the emergency room are still laughing about that one. I don't think I need to say what happened as soon as he turned the dial to turn it on. Oh, and by the way, it shows me being a newbee, trust me, I'm a very long way from that and have a hellavalot of experience. Quote
(='_'=) Posted July 26, 2012 Author Posted July 26, 2012 As (='_'=) said above the boats electrical system has been reworked over the years... So all bets are off as to how things are wired; however, the boat did run with the current set up before the restoration work began. and it is running again!!! after reading all of this posts and looking at the motor once again, i did what i knew worked... i split the yellow wires and hooked them together... i couldnt find any switch, relay or anything where both of them could go, but i KNEW that if if i got current on one of the yellow wires, the starter would get energy, and i also knew when i turned the key energy would "come out" of the other yello wire.... so i just hooked them together, put some gasoline on the tank, hooked one of those devices you put on the garden hose.... and after 2 key turns, the motor started... i turned it off, and started it again at the first turn, without using the choke.... so, thanx for your help!!! i couldnt see what i was missing, but now it starts.... as Traveler said, this boat has been reworked by a "boat mechanic" who could "fix" the boat with whatever was available... so there is no way of knowing what he did.... however, now it is working properly.... hopefully i will put it in the water this weekend and do some fishing.... =) Quote
Traveler2586 Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 and it is running again!!!...............................hopefully i will put it in the water this weekend and do some fishing.... =) CONGRATULATIONS!!! Quote
BKeith Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 May I make a suggestion. If you haven't already checked, put in in gear, forward and reverse, and see if it starts. If not, you should be good to go, but if it starts in gear, you have a very dangerous operating condition. You don't have to forget but one time and start it in gear with the trottle pushed to hurt someone or wreck the boat. Quote
(='_'=) Posted July 27, 2012 Author Posted July 27, 2012 May I make a suggestion. If you haven't already checked, put in in gear, forward and reverse, and see if it starts. If not, you should be good to go, but if it starts in gear, you have a very dangerous operating condition. You don't have to forget but one time and start it in gear with the trottle pushed to hurt someone or wreck the boat. well, there is no switch going to the shifts, so, even though i have not tried it, im pretty sure it would start in Forward or Reverse.... however it is not as easy as you say, technically it can start, but since it would be moving the propeller with the Starter, it would be hard and maybe it doesnt start... pretty much like starting my jeep without stepping on the clutch, it could be done, but its hard for the starter.... i could wire a POKA-YOKE, where i had to push another button to start it, this way it could be like a reminder.... other than that, i dont know what else i could do besides getting another shifting unit ot however its called.... Quote
(='_'=) Posted July 27, 2012 Author Posted July 27, 2012 CONGRATULATIONS!!! thanx Traveler!!! hopefully this saturday we will be able to go and annoy some fish.... Quote
Super User Fishing Rhino Posted July 27, 2012 Super User Posted July 27, 2012 well, there is no switch going to the shifts, so, even though i have not tried it, im pretty sure it would start in Forward or Reverse.... however it is not as easy as you say, technically it can start, but since it would be moving the propeller with the Starter, it would be hard and maybe it doesnt start... pretty much like starting my jeep without stepping on the clutch, it could be done, but its hard for the starter.... i could wire a POKA-YOKE, where i had to push another button to start it, this way it could be like a reminder.... other than that, i dont know what else i could do besides getting another shifting unit ot however its called.... The starter should be deactivated unless the engine is in neutral. The switch could be in either the throttle/shift control, or at the linkage on the motor. The motor can easily start in gear. The propeller, due to the gearing and the relatively slow starting rpms, will provide very little resistance to the starter. Once upon a time motors had no reverse, or neutral for that matter. They were started in gear. Some required you to wrap the starter cord around a groove in the flywheel. Later models had recoil hand pull starters that automatically rewound the pull cord around the mechanism. I had a four cylinder Mercury KG9 Thunderbolt 25 hp engine. It had a suicide throttle on the tiller handle. That is the type you squeeze and, if memory serves, a "lock" at the end of the tiller handle to hold the throttle in position (including wide open). No neutral. Start and go. It was possible to start that beast in the wide open position. It was strictly hand pull starting. The gauge on the front is a fuel pressure gauge. The knob to the right is a pump to manually build up fuel pressure in the tank, not unlike the older OMC two hose fuel tanks. Quote
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