Help From A Fisheries Biologist/bass Habitat Expert?

[tpsneaks18]

Ok, I am open to opinions from ANYONE but would love a real good answer from a possible fisheries biologist/bass behavior expert? I know we have to have some on here...? Here's my question:

I live on a string of 2 real ponds with a few smaller punchers haven's right near by...but the 2 ponds I live on are about 160 acres and 90 acres. I have lived on these ponds for over 20 years (23 years) and fished them my whole life...They are in a private community so generally thought of as private and old rude homeowners definitely yell @ non-locals fishing. But the question is this: The fish growth...The fish for the last...10 years...just haven't seemed to grow @ ALL. just a LITTLE bit of upswing in avg size each year...the amount of 2.5-3.5lbs fish is unreal but I at least put a line in the water here 150times a year and really go out and fish the ponds 60-70x a year. NEVER a weighed largemouth over 5lbs...I've had a couple that I would bet were barely 5...maybe. Quite a few in the 4lbs range but it just stops there...

Let me give you some background info:

-The ponds are ULTRA clear, Clear to the point u could have a cup of poland springs next to a cup of this pond water and barely tell the difference, seriously. fairly low vegetation but still plenty of weedbeds.

-Larger pond gets to a max depth of around 42 feet with plenty of drop offs and offshore structure. Smaller Pond has a maximum depth of over 50 ft. but only in one small corner, other than that it's a lot more flat and generally shallow in the 15-20ft. range if u took out that one very deep, small area.

-For 250 acres they do have an assortment of options...there is deep offshore rockpiles and humps and even a cove with weeds that grow from 15ft. down almost to the surface and hold lots of nice fish.

-They are spring fed...rain greatly affects their water levels...most years water levels have been very high, flooding into little fields/brush areas making great shoreline structure. This year, water level's very low so far.

-The fish spawn fine...lots of beds, fish always look and fight VERY healthily. They seem to fight beyond their means/size.

-Around my region MANY ponds have herring runs and are fed heavily by the herrring come up the rivers from the sea to spawn in the freshwater and this makes for much larger fish... my ponds have nothing like this. Also many ponds around here are trout stocked- again, not mine.

- The Main forage in these ponds is probably "chubs" or banded killifish/ "minnows". Bluegill and white perch too. I imagine a decent crawfish population too but I havent seen many.

- Also...the 2 ponds are separated by a small, 30-50ft strip of beach...when water's high or even fairly high they become connected thru a small stream. When connected it's day to day on which pond fishes better and it can be NO BITE on one pond, tons on the other...

-Water quality IS monitored by the town so that's not a factor.

ALSO: IMPORANT fact: When I was a kid there was a MUCH larger smallmouth population...you caught smallmouth 3-1 to largemouth...Now it's more like 8-1 largemouth to smallmouth. Smallmouth seem to be coming back pretty well but still a MUCH rarer catch nowadays.

What's odd is I do not hardly EVER catch "dinks"...only maybe 1 out of 10 is under 2lbs... almost all fish are 'cookie-cutter' 2.5-3.5lbs...with the average definitely being more like 3-3.5. The numbers are also usually excellent...we have 20, 30, even 40 fish days often. Conventional "bass rules" dont seem to apply...they seem to always bite.

SO MY thoughts and my brother's thoughts who is very knowledgable about this:

1. The Fish bite so well...Does this mean they're HUNGRY/lacking forage? They sure don't look it...the fish r healthy and look to be eating well...Could be just the lack of pressure? But then again...the smallmouth population DROPPED...did the largemouth start eating smallmouth years ago?

2. Lack of forage was one of the biggest thoughts...BUT why are the fish in fairly good size range and only growning a couple ounces a year? But then again why is there NO HAWGS...the amount of time i've put on this water, I'd have to have stuck a 5-6lber if they're in there...Largest I've weighed was 4-14 off of a bed...I've had fish I thought were barely over 5 but no scale...But not many, 2-4fish total...

3. My Brother's main/biggest theory is this: too many bass. Sounds funny to a bass fisherman but he believes the population is TOO high...Too many fish competing for not enough forage to provide substantial growth for all the others. If this is the case what could I do? I have a 3rd and 4th pond (small 30acres, n 15 acres) that are shallow, very vegetated ponds with lots of bass but much smaller in general. Could I release fish from my livewell and throw them in the smaller ponds? (probably not legal even tho they're private). Is this a feasable idea: TOO MANY bass? It seems to make sense cuz the fishing's amazing number's wise and we do notice a small yearly average size growth so is it nothing to worry about?

IS there a way @ all to help the bass grow larger and to make this a lunker-holding body(ies) of water?

I'd greatly appreciate ANYONE's opinion but would be very happy to hear from someone with a degree or knowledge on this particular matter directly. Thank you in advance guys!!!

[Rangerphil]

First off congrats on living in paradise! I am by no means an expert on this but my guess would be one, too many fish. I have heard that too many can stunt their growth. Just like if you would put too many goldfish in a bowl. Second, if there is that many bass then there is probably not near enough baitfish. It sounds like it may be a combination of a lot of things working against you. Are the lakes owned by someone if so you may be able to get a biologist out there and do some water testing and other things to improve the lake. Also the state fish commission may be able to help out or assist you too. Good luck!

[Michael DiNardo]

160 acres and 90 acres are ponds??? Count your blessings. I am in no way an expert in this subject, but

at some point, genetics takes over no matter what they eat. I would assume this is the basis behind the TX program.

Just like when people raise deer, they don't keep feeding spikes hoping they grow, they remove them from breeding.

Mike

[J Francho]

at some point, genetics takes over no matter what they eat

Not really. With fish, they grow their entire life, until just up to the end. It's all about water quality and food. One northern strain largemouth bass has roughly the same potential as another to get big. It's environmental.

For the OP, every environment is unique, so you need an expert, otherwise it's just ideas. I'm thinking you could contact a local university, and get ahold of a biologist. You can also look at Pondboss.com for ideas as well.

[Bass Dude]

I'm thinking you could contact a local university, and get ahold of a biologist.

X2---I went to through a fisheries program at a SUNY school. The teachers were always looking for a place to conduct labs and teach the techniques of collecting fish and data, then coming up with management strategies. Find out what schools in your area have a fisheries program and set something up with them. Then you're helping the ponds and the students...win-win situation!

[NCbassmaster4Life]

Every state has it's own district wildlife biologist, just look it up on google.

[Bass Dude]

Every state has it's own district wildlife biologist, just look it up on google.

This is worth a try, but I'm not sure that the state biologist would spend time working on a private pond. State budgets for these jobs have been cut drastically and they may need to focus their efforts on state land and water management. But...they may be able to point you in the right direction to get the help you need.

[robdob]

check out www.pondboss.com you'll get answers from that site there are several actual biologists who post in their forums often. how old are these "ponds". ?? many newly impounded lakes have great smallmouth habitat for the first ten to fifteen years then as they age more sediment settles to the bottom causing a loss of rocky habitat and an increase in vegetation which leads to a decrease in smallmouth and increase in largemouth. lots of 2 to 3 lb bass in a lake in my neck of the woods would be like a gift from the gods by the way so you should feel lucky. if other lakes in your area are growing larger bass on the average than your lakes then forage is most likely your biggest problem.

[Dave P]

Do contact a professional. But, my best guess would be to thin them out a little and see what happens.

[jiggerpole]

• The Fish bite so well...Does this mean they're HUNGRY/lacking forage? (Compitition for food may be high enough that it brings out the most aggressive fish first, which are usually the ones that get caught first. Sometimes the bigger fish will let the others go on the feeding frenzy and pick off the injured baitfish that linger around.) Easy pickings!)
  

They sure don't look it...the fish r healthy and look to be eating well...Could be just the lack of pressure? ( Lack of pressure will make for a better day fishing anytime.) But then again...the smallmouth population DROPPED...did the largemouth start eating smallmouth years ago? (I don’t think that predation of Smallmouth is the answer.) I am not that familiar with the Smallmouth. I’m from the south and I don’t see that many. You could be looking at Spotted bass in these lakes rather than Largemouth and if that is the case then Spotted bass are notorious for out competing other bass in a lake and creating a stunted growth situation. Plus a 5 pound Spot would be huge. If it is all Largemouth then you may have allot of food in the lakes to get them to that 3 lb. Mark but then be lacking the next level of food source in the food chain to get them to bump over to the 5 plus mark. If they are all the coming from the same cookie cutter then harvesting those bass may be the answer.)

2. Lack of forage was one of the biggest thoughts...BUT why are the fish in fairly good size range and only growning a couple ounces a year? (Lack of the right size forage.) But then again why is there NO HAWGS...the amount of time i've put on this water, I'd have to have stuck a 5-6lber if they're in there...Largest I've weighed was 4-14 off of a bed...I've had fish I thought were barely over 5 but no scale...But not many, 2-4fish total... ( The true Hawgs are always going to be the minority even in well managed lakes.)

3. My Brother's main/biggest theory is this: too many bass. Sounds funny to a bass fisherman but he believes the population is TOO high...Too many fish competing for not enough forage to provide substantial growth for all the others. If this is the case what could I do? ( Harvesting some bass is the only good answer. Have a fish fry.) I have a 3rd and 4th pond (small 30acres, n 15 acres) that are shallow, very vegetated ponds with lots of bass but much smaller in general. Could I release fish from my livewell and throw them in the smaller ponds? (Putting more bass into an already bass starving lake will just make for more starving bass. It could also introduce viruses or who knows what to your smaller lake. This is not a good ideal and I would advise against it) (probably not legal even tho they're private). Is this a feasable idea: TOO MANY bass? (Yes, but without actually seeing the lake and taking samples there is no way of knowing for sure what the best plan of attack would be.) It seems to make sense cuz the fishing's amazing number's wise and we do notice a small yearly average size growth so is it nothing to worry about? ( Depends on what you and the landowners want from the lake??? Catching big numbers of avaerage size bass that put up a good fight sounds like a good problem to have. If you want bigger bass then that is a different game.)

IS there a way @ all to help the bass grow larger and to make this a lunker-holding body(ies) of water? (Yes, with allot of work and or money, and with a whole lot of patience it can happen.) A local biologist taking a good look at your lakes would be the best thing, to get you going in the right direction. Good Luck.

[Michael DiNardo]

Not really. With fish, they grow their entire life, until just up to the end. It's all about water quality and food. One northern strain largemouth bass has roughly the same potential as another to get big. It's environmental.

For the OP, every environment is unique, so you need an expert, otherwise it's just ideas. I'm thinking you could contact a local university, and get ahold of a biologist. You can also look at Pondboss.com for ideas as well.

With all due respect, if this is the case, why does TX "collect" bass over 13 lbs to use for breeding/stocking. Also why did CA stock FL Strain largemouth?

Mike

[Sam]

Where do you live? It would be helpful to know.

All of the above responses are excellent so give 'em a shot.

I agree on the over population theory and asking a local Sea Grant University college of fisheries science or biology to give you direction. However, finding a helpful prof can be a problem depending how far from the university you live.

Join the Pond Boss forum and ask your questions of its members and I am sure you will receive many good responses.

Let us know what you are told and how you address the situation based on the Farm Pond members responses.

[Hooligan]

With all due respect, if this is the case, why does TX "collect" bass over 13 lbs to use for breeding/stocking. Also why did CA stock FL Strain largemouth?

Mike

Because those are exceptional specimens that are genetically predisposed to large growth. While JF is correct to a degree, there are limiting factors involved in the theory. In the end, genes do play a part in how large a fish can get, but not because of how those genes dictate growth. They dictate where that fish forages, how it forages, what it does in regards to spawning... MANY other factors are more important, in terms of genetics, to a fish's growth, than the factor of how big their genes say that they may grow.

A population of the size the OP is speaking won't stunt because of genetics, it's virtually impossible. They're environmentally limited, whether by forage, by density, or some other factor. What that factor is remains to be seen, however. In most states, a district biologist will be more than happy to work with a private landowner to improve the situation in their pond, that IS part of what they do. I know of not one state, offhand, that excludes private bodies of water from being able to utilize that resource.

[Quillback]

We have half a dozen community lakes here where I live. We also have a former Arkansas G&F bass biologist who is now the community lake biologist, the bio also gets assistance from a water quality expert with a PHD, and has a couple of interns working for him, our lakes are sort of a "lab" for thse guys. A couple of our lakes, despite heavy angling pressure, have excellent bass populations. A couple of the lakes do not support healthy bass populations.

One big issue is water clarity, clear water, though pleasing to look at, is, at least in our lakes, is not good for our bass. Clear water indicates a lack of plankton, the base of the food chain. Clear water also allows easier sunlight penetration and encourages the growth of undesirable algae and weeds. Our fisheries team spends quite a bit of time managing water clarity and encouraging plankton growth. They do this primarily through the application of phosphorous and nitrogen. Their target is 3-6 feet of clarity measured on a Secchi disk.

So it's a complex issue, and as the others have said, to do it right you'll need professional advice, and even with that advice you're looking at a long term project.

[J Francho]

With all due respect, if this is the case, why does TX "collect" bass over 13 lbs to use for breeding/stocking. Also why did CA stock FL Strain largemouth?

Mike

Like Hooligan said, those 13 lb. + are one in a billion. They are gambling on their genetics. It probably isn't a genetic trait of fast growth or large size rate that got them over 13 lbs. though. More likely some other trait, not easily quantified: temperament, spawning behavior, preferred environment, etc. Mix that with the right recipe for growing and sustaining large fish, and you got a trophy fishery. As far as Florida Strain bass goes, it's a different species of fish, and the same applies. Each fry has potential of becoming as big as the environment can churn out, just like any other species of fish.

[aclark609]

Like Hooligan said, those 13 lb. + are one in a billion. They are gambling on their genetics. It probably isn't a genetic trait of fast growth or large size rate that got them over 13 lbs. though. More likely some other trait, not easily quantified: temperament, spawning behavior, preferred environment, etc. Mix that with the right recipe for growing and sustaining large fish, and you got a trophy fishery. As far as Florida Strain bass goes, it's a different species of fish, and the same applies. Each fry has potential of becoming as big as the environment can churn out, just like any other species of fish.

Good piece of information. Thanks.

[tpsneaks18]

I live in Massachusetts...I'm not complaining...HECK NO...ppl would KILL to grow up on 250 acres (plus a couple little mat punchers paradises if u want to change it up) and the fishing is AMAZING...I think the lack of SIZE of forage may be a problem but I truly think it's the number of fish. And to the person who said spots- yeah they are definitely not Spotted bass. We don't have them here. The Average size is great but it's just always the same general size...and the lack of dinks too...u hardly ever catch a small one...But I did just see a school last week of easily 100 8-12" bass so they're in there. Also "baby bass" colors work wonderful inthese ponds so I imagine t hey are eating those. So do baits colored similiar to white perch...And bluegill baits...But we have thousands of chubs/killifish/shad but they're just small ones.And yes...other ponds in my area (some) grow much larger size but they are fed by herring runs...man-made rivers built coming up from the estuaries and sea so the herring can make t heir way into the ponds to spawn. These are big herring...8" avg size and many up to 10-12". Also we get big trout stockings...and a lot of them are on the smaller size... 8"-12" and those ponds grow big bass. Break 10 is still unheard of out here...usually the annual state yearly record is in the high 9 range...smallmouth 6-7lbs. But We have an abundance of 5-7lbs fish. 5lbs on some lakes is routine and almost 1 per trip is a given. But I guess it's an easier answer than I thought when reading all the responses and thinking about it harder...The lakes that hold 5+ LM around here have BIGGER forage...the 5-7lbs potential lakes are all the herring fed or trout-stocked ponds...My ponds have neither...I also believe an abundance of fish may be a small problem too but a good point is...a pond you know you can go out and catch 20 2-3.5lbs in a 6 hour day is nothing to complain about.

[NCbassmaster4Life]

This is worth a try, but I'm not sure that the state biologist would spend time working on a private pond. State budgets for these jobs have been cut drastically and they may need to focus their efforts on state land and water management. But...they may be able to point you in the right direction to get the help you need.

Not all states are on the same budget...