RyanCastin

I caught a large great blue heron once. I was fishing a small pond and was casting from a small gap between the trees and bushes. Had no visibility to the sides of me. Right as I threw a cast a full-grown blue heron came swooping down under my line. Line wrapped around the front of his wing and he panicked. I had no assistance and was in an area with tons of people walking the path on the other side of the pond. These people were giving me the dirtiest looks as if I wanted to hook into such a beautiful bird. Every time I would get him within 10 feet of me he would go flying straight up in the air and come crashing back down onto the water. I was panicking as well... Eventually I was able to get him close enough to try to get the hook out. As I had no help this was not a safe idea as they have dagger-like beaks. Without someone to constrain the bird while I got the hooks out I could have gotten an eye taken out. So I got him as close as I could and cut the line. Luckily there was only about a foot of line on him so I believe it was not enough to tangle himself in. Needless to say, all the people who were watching me angrily should have helped.

That is interesting but I guess if they don’t have to waste a lot of energy to eat them it still pays off.

I agree with that! It is interesting that they do not distinguish very well between yellow/white and black/blue. As discussed earlier in the thread they can not distinguish between yellows and whites due to only having two cones. Also interesting with the black and blue as the depth of the water likely makes blue be perceived as black. I also agree that presentation, size, and profile are likely more important than color. However in different water conditions/productivity’s I’m sure color may have an effect based on if they can spot it easily or not. I feel like we have discussed most of the color/lake productivity topic so let’s move on to something else. We can start discussing feeding patterns, behavioral budgets of large vs. small bass, and how they respond to being caught. Or if there are any other questions anyone has we can start addressing those. I will start us off by saying that the largest bass are typically a lot lazier and do not often waste the energy to chase down a lure. It is not worth it in terms of energetic efficiency to waste energy chasing down bait as they would end up using more energy than gained. I have much more information to add to this tomorrow. I am currently on a mini-vacation so will add some more scientific info tomorrow afternoon.

Do you have a link to this study? I would like to read further into it. Sounds like a bit of classical conditioning (Pavlovian conditioning - Pavlov's dogs). If it is classical conditioning, this does not prove much other than that they can distinguish differences in light intensity to either receive a reward or prevent a punishment (like being shocked). It is interesting in the white/yellow graphs though, as we discussed earlier that bass perceive whites and yellows the same due to their 2 cone vision in comparison to our 3 cone vision. Please leave a link I would like to read about the study!

Lol yeah there are no clear cut definitions of what makes a lake or a pond so it can get a little confusing. Most scientists refer to lakes as very large, deep bodies of water while ponds are considered small, shallow bodies of water which are shallow enough that light can reach the bottom. This is also obviously not a clear cut definition as there are some massive lakes that are only 12-15ft deep. But in general, this is the rule of thumb to use when determining a pond or a lake. And I also know a pond like that with the only fish in it being bass. I determined they must feed on other hatchling size bass, craws, and amphibians that live near the water. Are there crawfish in the pond you are mentioning? If so, it is most likely that the bass are feeding on craws and if big enough, then feeding on the baby carp.

I will look into it for you! Likely you should narrow down your search online by classifying them as something like neighborhood ponds since they are typically not very large bodies of water. I’ll see what I can find today!

The opposite of blue is yellow. However to appear as yellow, the object that is yellow must absorb blue light to reflect yellow. If blue light can not penetrate the water, I am unsure of how this would effect yellow. We do know that yellows are seen nearly the same as white by bass. So likely this yellow would just appear as an off shade of white to them I believe I learned a bit about this in the book I referenced a while back in the thread. I will see if I can pull out a quote after work today.

In a shallow pond at 6 feet with dark colors, it should not have much effect on color other than the blue dye interfering with the actual color you choose. Since the pond isn't very deep, the blue dye likely just makes each color a bit darker like you stated. If the pond was deep, these dark colors would likely just be perceived as black with greater depth. Because you stated the blue dye is to cut down on blue light wavelengths, if you were using yellow or orange lures they would not appear as yellow or orange because these colors absorb blue wavelengths and reflect as their colors: yellow and orange. With blue wavelengths not being able to penetrate the water, these colors would not reflect their normal color. This is due to these colors being opposite ends of the spectrum. Colors that are opposite from each other on the spectrum absorb their opposite wavelength and reflect their own color. All of this information is regarding how us humans see color however, and we can only speculate on how the fish see it as they have different sight adaptations than us.

I totally agree and am not claiming that. I just believe that understanding how bass perceive color can help us determine if we are wasting our money on fancy colored lures. I am simply just talking about how we perceive color compared to how bass see color. While we think a color may match the color of baitfish, it may be the complete opposite once it is in the water depending on the water being eutrophic or oligotrophic. Yes I can, what do you not understand? Basically each color that we see corresponds to a light wavelength. Therefore, the reflection of light off an object IS color that we see. Different colors are seen by us as that color because they absorb some spectrums of light while reflecting another. Red does not penetrate deep into the water because it has the longest wavelength and therefore has the lowest amount of energy. As light wavelengths are the longest at red and the shortest at blue, red wavelengths do not penetrate deep into the water due to their lower amount of energy. Blue wavelengths penetrate deepest into the water because of their higher amount of energy. Let me know if you need any more explanation!

Yes it would have an effect on color, although I am not an expert with this topic. I am not very familiar with the idea of dyed waters so this is my best hypothesis. As mentioned earlier, reds would appear darker in shallow water and black in deeper water as the red light does not penetrate deep into the water and therefore the color red does not show up deep in the water. In this case of water dyed blue, reds and greens would appear darker and appear as black with more depth due to the blue dye absorbing red and green spectrums of light. Therefore, because the blue dye is absorbing these spectrums of light, these reds and greens would not appear as much the deeper you get into the water. What depth are you usually fishing and what colors are you using?

I go fishing and have fun as well. Us science guys that regulate and manage your fisheries just simply enjoy what we do and enjoy learning more about them. Without science your fisheries would all be completely devastated from overfishing and poor management. There is a lot of science that goes into creating healthy fisheries. If you don't care then you shouldn't be in the sport. Also what you mentioned is astrology not science... LOL

There is a lot to go over on this topic... Start with this link for aquatic vegetation in Colorado! http://www.cowyafs.org/wp-content/themes/cowyafs/AquaticPlants/AquaticPlants_AFS_20120326.pdf Okay I get that but we are discussing scientific information not throwing out our best guesses.

You obviously didnt read the thread. We have been talking about how water color in eutrophic (green/brown water) and oligotrophic (clear/blue water) lakes affects the perception of color. Along with this, we have been talking about how the angle of light/time of day effects color. In example, red wavelengths do not penetrate deep into the water at mid-day but do penetrate further at low-light angles. This means that your red lure does not appear red (it appears black) in deeper water if the sun is at mid-day or high light hours. The natural color of baitfish is nearly impossible to "match" as their natural color is not painted and the different water types eutrophic/oligotrophic change the perception of color at different depths. Also, the natural color of baitfish is enhanced by its reflectivity of the scales of the fish. Read the thread.

Thanks, and I agree. I’ve been doing research and there’s nothing that gives me a reason to think that the ceramic should be wearing down, especially with only one short use. The noise it makes is more of a vibration/echo which sounds like it is caused by some sort of rubbing. I just took a q-tip to the guide that’s giving me problems and got a bunch of black little pieces that are coming off of it. I’ll attach a pic: In the picture you can see a few little black dots on the q-tip, these are the filings I am talking about. Spent a minute in my room dropping the bait to the floor and reeling it back in and boom there was more of it in the guide.

That may be the case... I emailed Sportsman's Outfitters where I bought it and will let you guys know if they can help me resolve this! Thanks for the help!

Lol I guess I know that. More the question was, are they supposed to wear down/file down with short use?

Actually now that I look at what a MicroWave guide actually is, I dont think the rod has microwave guides... LOL They are standard aluminum-oxide guides... So now, I must ask the same questions again, are they supposed to have these problems?

Are they supposed to file/shave down with use? Looks like its just the tip guide that is doing it which makes sense because it has the most pressure on it. Also do they always make a rubbing noise?

I just recently purchased a Lew’s Pro-Ti and a Lew’s TP1X casting rod. I put 20# braid on it. However when I took it out to test the setup today I noticed that it made a lot of noise. Sounds as if the line is rubbing while retrieving. I tested to see if it was coming from the reel by pulling a bunch of line out and retrieving it with no tension on the rod- no noise. So the noise is coming from the rod/guides. It makes a sort of screeching/rub sound coming from the rod and I believe echoing down to the handle. My line was going through all of the guides and not rubbing on the blank. I believe the rod guides are MicroWave guides? Upon inspection I noticed that the rod tip guide looks as if the line is filing it down or something. Is this supposed to happen with these guys? It looked like there were little shavings of rubber/plastic or whatever the guides are made out of and they rubbed right off when I touched them. I believe this is what is causing the noise as well? Is this a defective guide or are they designed this way?

I would think that flake's role is more its reflectiveness than color itself as they are such small specks of color. These small specks are likely hard to distinguish color-wise while the light wavelengths of the water color (green-brown or clear-blue) interact with the light wavelengths of the flake's. Maybe not as much in clear/blue water (oligotrophic) but in green/brown water (eutrophic) I would think that the light wavelengths (color) of the water would make the flake color harder to distinguish and rather the reflectiveness of the flake is attractive. Another topic we must start to bring up when thinking about color perception of fish (not bass) is bioluminescence (Definition from oxford: the biochemical emission of light by living organisms such as fireflies and deep-sea fishes). This definition states that just deep-sea fish have bioluminescence, however that is simply not true. One of my biology professor's at Regis University has actually done LOTS of research on this topic in terms of all marine organisms, and he told us that there are far more marine organisms that do have bioluminescence than those that do not. You can look him up his name is Dr. Michael Ghedotti. This is obviously more in response to those in the thread that are talking about saltwater fish/lure colors and not about bass as there are not many freshwater organisms that have this remarkable adaptation. Agreed, red light simply just penetrates further into the water at low light angles. It does not penetrate very deep into the water mid-day.

Thanks for bringing so much information into the thread! I love hearing from people with different disciplines as they all can work together to create a better understanding of the natural world. It is interesting that you brought up the idea of bass having only two cones, while us humans have three. I have not learned as much about that topic but it has been mentioned in some courses (rods vs. cones). I'm also happy that you gave us background on the differences between having 2 and 3 cones. The idea that intensity is likely to play a bigger role in bass perception gives an explanation to the "study" that was mentioned earlier in this thread with bass reacting differently to different whites. Now with all of this information about their actual eyesight, we can get a better understanding of how they perceive "color" in eutrophic vs. oligotrophic lakes. While eutrophic lakes are green-brown in color and oligotrophic lakes are clear-blue in color, it makes me hypothesize that a white (or chartreuse) lure would be perceived to the bass as a lighter shade of green (based on you saying that bass can perceive red-green) as the white wavelength mixes with the green wavelengths of the water. Then, with more depth I would imagine that this white becomes a darker and darker green. And in oligotrophic lakes I would have to hypothesize that a white (or chartreuse) lure would not be perceived differently in terms of color but most likely would in terms of intensity at different depths. Also we must note that red wavelengths do not penetrate deep into the water - so although bass can perceive red-green the red wavelengths likely don't play much of a role in their vision. That is interesting with those lure colors. Obviously there has been much more science going into the color/patterns of those lures than many freshwater lures. That is also what I had mentioned earlier about the clear/reflective lures being most effective in any type of water (they just look the most natural as they reflect light wavelengths the same way fish scales do). And those are some great quality pictures!

Im not sure that they do but they are very open to students creating their own clubs and programs so Im sure you could easily get that started with a few buddies. It is a great school. I used to hate school until I came to Regis, and now I love going to school and have enjoyed every year of it. Out of all my professors in 4 years Ive only had one that I didnt like. He was a history professor though so wasnt related to my major.

Yes that is correct! Another interesting fact about bait balls is that the predatory fish can not actually distinguish individual fish out of the bait ball unless they stray too far away from the group. This is due to most predatory fish being either near-sighted or far-sighted. I will pull out the book later and put in some more info on largemouth regarding to this. This is mentioned in the book I referred earlier in the thread. Further, the baitfish actually make bait balls as a response to predators. It is the group-size effect (if there’s more of us closer together, I myself have a lower chance of being eaten than if I was by myself)

Yes I’m glad you brought this up! The most light is reflected from the surface of the water at mid-day and the most light penetrates the water at lower angles! Therefore, with red spectrums of light not entering very deep into the water column, they likely reach a bit further as the sun is at a lower angle! Reflectivity definitely has an important role in colors as fish perceive them! That is why many fish are attracted to spinner baits/ and baits that reflect light well. I do not know all of the details of this, but will look into it further.

Yes that is a great major! It would be pretty tough but don’t let that stop you. As an environmental major I’ve had to take a lot of biology, ecology, and environmental courses. I’m sure the same goes for fisheries biology as these three disciplines are very interconnected. It has been a tough major for sure, but pair it with an easier minor (or no minor and just easy electives) and it won’t be bad! I would highly recommend doing it if you are interested and your interest will take you a long way and keep you motivated! If you haven’t found a college yet, I recommend looking into Regis University. All of my professors have been amazing there and good professors make class much more enjoyable! Also they give out many scholarships to reduce the cost of their expensive tuition. Love that you can bring in the perspective of a diver yourself! And yes, I know that color is subjective however for the sake of all of the no science background people on this forum I decided to stick with the subjective terms because it makes a lot more sense to most people than raw energy numbers. Do you have any insight on colors in eutrophic vs. oligotrophic lakes at different depths? More so, how the colors are distorted under the differences in water color/light spectrum that enters the water? Thanks!