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retiredbosn

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Everything posted by retiredbosn

  1. The rat shot event was a very lucky incident for the guy who got shot. The shooter had intend to kill him, butt as luck would have it he had been using the gun to dispatch snakes while he was digging ramps and forgot to reload the revolver. The two of them actually got into it over an illegal game of poker.
  2. Please indulge me the permission to play Devil's advocate on this one, of all the studies of ballistics: shotgun ballistics are the hardest to nail down, there are many, many factors in this but for the sake of brevity I'll not go into all of them here. As you all know the sectional density and to a lesser degree the ballistic coefficient determines how far a round will penetrate at PBR or any distance to farther the distance the more ballistic coefficient comes into play. Shotgun pellets are not uniform in size, sectional density or ballistic coefficient: pellets are formed when molten lead is dropped from a shot tower, as the lead falls an cools the formation of pellets are a natural phenomena: there aren't any forms involved. When the pellets drop they are then sorted by size and loaded into the shells. Hardness of the pellet is determined by the amount of antimony that is added to lead, pellets sized 6 and smaller have little antimony added so the soft lead deforms easily, and doesn't penetrate well. Secondly ballistic performance of shotshells on plywood, drywall and other similarly brittle materials have little correlation to how the shot will perform on the human body. The human body is a soft target, which sounds like the performance of the shot would be more devastating not less, but in fact it is far less. There are three components to penetration in soft targets: Strength, Viscosity, and density of the target. Ed Lowry explained that soft target have all three qualities. Robins' wood had strength as the primary factor, a constant unrelated to velocity. Viscosity, whether tar, grease, honey, is proportional to the velocity. Density, as in water, cork, dust, is proportional to the square of the velocity, as explained by Ed Lowry. (quote from shotgunning ballistics article found here http://www.chuckhawks.com/pellet_penetration.htm) (Ed Lowry was known as the "Dean of Shotgunning Ballistics) In other words whatever you shoot a human target with must contain enough sectional density, velocity and energy to overcome the elasticity of skin, density of muscle and bone, and finally the viscosity of blood; before reaching vital organs. Probably the most striking evidence of this is the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt. His handwritten speech and heavily muscled pectorals stopped the .38 caliber bullet fired from a Colt revolver at 10 feet. He gave a 90 minute speech before seeking medical attention. Here is another ballistics study on the efficacy of small shot shotshells http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/ Here is one of the quotes that I feel is pertinent to this discussion Birdshot as a Defense Load I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load? We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds. Then there are these real world reports from the same article: A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want… to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this. “I saw a gunshot victim, about 5′ 10″ and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said ‘buckshot’ wound, but this was obviously not accurate. It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, ‘use birdshot for little birds.’” Also, here is another article utilizing ballistics gelatin as the target, however carefully note the conditions the author tells the reader about. Additionally note that there is no bone placed in the gelatin and the actual shot would penetrate even less in real world conditions. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/ Finally the ugly truth about shooting a shotgun at close range, pattern size. Many people mistakenly think that they have a better chance of hitting the target using a shotgun, however at ranges of 12 feet and less the shot shell pattern will only be approximately 2-3 inches wide at 12 feet and much much less at 3 feet, utilizing an open bore choke, i.e. no choke. Unless you modify the muzzle of the shotgun to spread the load immediately upon the shot exiting the barrel, a duckbill choke does this nicely. What gun and ammunition people use as their home defense is 100% a personal choice, and I'm not trying to change your opinion or tell you your opinion is wrong. Rather it is to point out that there is allot of misinformation being passed off as truth, not nefariously but from a lack of understanding terminal ballistics. Shooting a hole in plywood doesn't equate to shooting a hole in a bad guy. As this video from youtube would have you believe
  3. Well nuts, I'll be going thru the eastern part.
  4. I'm partial to the dying rabbit. Sidebar: When I was into coyote hunting one of the calls featured puppies. I was caught sneaking the family dog (small mix breed) out to use as a decoy! That went over like a fart in a diving helmet.
  5. no post, messed up
  6. For the curious Kinetic energy is defined as (mass multiplied by velocity) squared/2. 6 shot lead pellets in grams weigh approximately .12910. Using standard loads the velocity of the shot string when it leaves the barrel is 1200ft/sec. So this equates to 6.4ft/lbs of kinetic energy per pellet. Compared to each pellet of 00 buckshot having 172ft-lbs, a .38 special averages between 230-250ft-lbs, a .357 magnum between 540-600ft-lbs
  7. Raider if you find this forum please advice me and Slone as well, I want in!!!!
  8. Was reading another thread and a couple of people were reporting that they used birdshot, number 6 actually, as their home defense ammo. My question is why? I once witnessed a man getting shot at PBR (point blank range) by a ,38 special loaded with rat shot, number 6 shot, in the chest at a bar. In that incident all that happened was the guy who was shot got very angry and beat the living crap out of the guy who shot him. I have shot hundreds of ringneck pheasants, my first excursion I tried using 6 shot, not too smart on my behalf as most of the birds got away. I had to use either 4 or 5 shot to kill them cleanly. Remember when Dick Cheney shot a hunting buddy while quail hunting? Didn't kill him, I think the range there was close to 30 yards though. 6 shot kinetic energy at PBR is something like 6ft-lbs for each pellet, granted a 12 gauge holds something like 500 of them, but the pellets would not possess the energy required to penetrate skin, bone, etc. to reach vital organs. Additionally birdshot is notoriously soft, there isn't enough antimony in the shot to sufficiently harden it to penetrate human bone. What will happen is the shot will flatten upon impact and not adequately penetrate, the shock from the pellets may be enough to at least knock them out or down. I understand the worry of shooting through a wall using slugs and MAYBE an interior wall using buckshot. But I wonder about the efficiency of birdshot to stop a criminal in their tracks, the last thing I would want to do is merely wound the person. You MAY stop the robbery, but given the fact that they will sue and probably win it's not worth the risk. I'm not trying to start a war on here, but am curious as to why anyone would choose this route. Please enlighten me, because it seems to me that a more robust round capable of stopping the bad guy out weighs the negatives. Try using either magnum goose or turkey loads, they will not penetrate the exterior walls and probably won't carry enough energy after passing through and interior wall to injure anyone. BTW here is a couple of pics of the guy Cheney shot, didn't even put out an eye, luckily for the person being shot. The first one is shortly after the accident, the second one after the bruising was more pronounced.
  9. What I find amazing is how so many ppl here know how well the room is lit. Ever been there? Or work in a high rise? Or build one?
  10. Seriously what part of ny are you located. Heading to Boston in a few weeks.
  11. Dude just buy me a plane ticket, no longer allergic, I'll pull it up. Price is plane ticket and a smallie fishing trip
  12. What ever you do DO NOT burn it, the smoke carries the oil and it will get inside your noise, esophagus and lungs. It will darn near kill ya, learned that the hard way. Get some poison ivy spray from your nearest supplier, regular weed and brush killer will not phase it. Poison ivy laughs at regular round up. I'm no longer allergic to it and just pull it down and out by the roots.
  13. It's pretty obvious who has worked in trades and who hasn't. Tradesmen many times have tedious and dangerous jobs and playing pranks on each other relieves the stress, and on many job sites it's non stop and good natured, no disrespect intended. I don't see this as an attack on women in general rather good natured fun. I once removed the helm from a cutter and hid the pieces all over the base, I was nice enough to leave clues. Another time caught a snake and hid it on the rhib some Army Rangers were training in, they didn't really appreciate it tho, some ppl just don't have a sense of humor. Anyway this thread and many comments made illustrate the absurdity of the political correct society we are now forced to live in. If ya read slone's original post it was a man who first blew the whistle, then the "queen of the whiners" decides to involve the bosses, why? As stated in the post get someone in trouble, unnecessarily. Who made her the supervisor of the ppl in the room? I'd be willing to bet that this particular person demands special treatment because she is a woman, but screams inequality whenever she feels the least bit slighted. FWIW both my Mother and Ex-wife have stated more than once that they would rather work with men than women. That in general women caused discord in the work place by continual complaining, backstabbing, and gossip. I've served with women and also have been employed by and supervised by women, I never had any issues. The only time that I was annoyed was the few times when women demanded equality but then expected special treatment; ya can't have it both ways.
  14. Being from WV I guess I'm a hillbilly, there may be some truth there, lol
  15. You're in for the worst "prank" EVER. You now know its coming and there its NOTHING anyone can do to stop it. Every woman in that office will over time have their biological clock synchronize, I think its just cruel. They will all have pms simultaneously, I feel sorry for you. BTW, I really like the air horn idea. Other ideas include hiding a fart machine in the most annoying one's desk. They cost something like 10 bucks and come with a remote. Having the ability the embarrass them on demand is priceless. Sit out a dish of the jelly beams my son has, watching their expression eating a barf or skunk spray jelly bean would be worth the effort. Velcro the phone handset to the base, unhook the computer keyboard, send flowers to one using the name of another one's boyfriend, or from one of the other women, just to name a few.
  16. Just like a Yankee trying to tell a southerner how to pronounce the name of a southern town. Been there many times it's Lewieville unless you want labeled as a yank. How do you pronounce Arkansas? Arkansaw or the way it's spelled?
  17. I'm old school and vividly remember the Iron Curtain, the arms race etc. I just couldn't bring myself to the point of using a Russian round. Besides if I wanted to shoot a short .30 cal round I'd opt for a .308. Hunting ammo is much easier to find, brass is readily available for reloading. Allot of the 7.62x54 casing is steel: and please don't be shooting deer with a fmj military surplus ammo. FMJ ammo is designed to wound not kill. There is little energy transfer and no mushrooming of the round.
  18. Sam, No matter what gun you choose I would highly recommend taking a combat shooting course, even those proficient with a firearm can quickly fall apart under real world conditions. A course that emphasizes shoot no shoot scenarios, shooting while taking cover, using building corners as both cover and a rest, shooting while on the move, shooting a moving target, shooting a moving target while moving yourself, cover fire so you can escape, etc. I've seen people that are expert shooters while shooting stationary targets miss most of the targets while simulating real world scenarios and those not so hot shooting paper targets become very proficient combat shooters. The courses are usually allot of fun and the practice will definitely make you a better marksman.
  19. The 270 with the right shooter is more than adequate for all North American game. However when you step up to the Kodiak or Polar bear, you better know what you are doing with that gun, most guides will not allow a caliber less than 30 cal for the dangerous bears. The 270 will stop a charging black bear, the blackie just isn't as durable. Most people today suffer from magnumitis and are way over powered for North American game. Most of our game are thin skinned and not heavily boned, the exceptions being the Kodiak and Polar bears, and even those are thin skinned.
  20. I don't always watch the thermometer, it's just HOT! My uncle said today was the 15th straight day of triple digit heat, the humidity is hovering around 90%as well.
  21. Amen brother, my daughter has a long haired worthless cat, white of course. Went to see her a few weeks ago, I'm still finding long white cat hair, main reason ours stays outside.
  22. Yep, just got through feeding the little monster. He is an absolute terror on birds, snakes, lizards, even brought in a wood rat almost half his size the other day! Cats are one of the few animals that hunt and kill for the pure joy of hunting
  23. Then don't present yourself as an elite intellect with the ability to correct another person when u don't possess the facts to back it up. History is being rewritten imo to promote an agenda with no interest in truth. Science is another discipline where this its happening.
  24. Thank you Jakob you left out several but that's cool. My post WAS NOT directed towards you, I would encourage you to go back and do your own study of the time periods you listed. Just because the area had a ruling dynasty does not mean there was peace. Your comment that I quoted is accurate, but like I stated do your research let the facts speak for themselves, because as you stated the rule of the sword doesn't sound peaceful.
  25. I'm sorry everyone, but stuff like this really irks me. Post on a public forum that the historical record is wrong then bail. Younger ppl fall prey to this crap revisionist historians claim to reveal the truth (rarely do they), instead they are promoting a humanist world view. This elitist attitude that they are the truth bearers and the test of us are either to ignorant or stupid to understand, hiding behind in this case "Forum rules"? All I want is a timeframe, it's easy civil war 1861-1865, WWI 1914-1918, WWII 1939-1945. If I have to go into either a religious or political discussion why these dates are not accurate then I'm revising the historical record, in short lying.
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