Paul Roberts

Thanks, Tom. Good point. I suppose that was J Francho's and BassWhole's points too. For big strong-running fish, esp salmon and tuna, that can turn and give you the tail for prolonged periods are a different animal from bass. Although big smallies on light tackle, esp boat-side, can require some lifting. Again, my point wasn't to say lifting/pumping have no place. Just that leading (and/or torque-reeling) has its place, and has an interesting effect on hooked fish. It seems fish don't 'feel the hook' s much as they 'feel the tug' of the line and rod. Phew! Maybe I'll wait to discuss such things until after cabin fever season has passed. I was curious, so I looked at some of my fights on video and see that my default is indeed to lead. I lift (pump) in close when bigger fish can turn away and give me that tail! I also had a foul-hooked (belly-hooked) carp that required some serious lifting. I hate fighting foul-hooked fish. It gets old fast.

Ouch! I've never seen that, but can picture it! Having the guides ripped off a rod must be a SW thing, where there are fish big enough and strong enough to really test -even break- quality tackle, and an angler physically. I've never done any "big game" fishing and would guess that's a different realm. To clarify, I didn't mean to suggest there is no place for pumping. Obviously, a rod can only move so much line. But in certain circumstances, besides winching -esp super-light tackle- telegraphing to the fish isn't helpful. That said, I don't think I do that much 'pumping' while fighting bass. Could just be that they just don't move all that far, and all I'm doing is keeping a tight line and guiding them. Compare that with Chinook salmon, as John mentioned, which are big strong dogged fighters that can cover water, and have to be physically subdued. I also found that they -and lake trout- can be negatively buoyant and thus actually adding weight to the fight. Also, the larger channel cats I've tangled with also require pumping, or lifting. Partly bc they are big and strong fighters, but also bc their body's are both laterally compressed along the flanks and horizontally compressed with that shovel-shaped head. They can run well when a distance out, and become what I’ve come to call, “cinder blocks with fins” when directly below the rod. They simply have to be lifted. I also wonder if they aren’t somewhat negatively buoyant during these fights too. They can sure feel like it. I'm curious though, what my bass fights look like, how much ‘pumping’ I do. Since I have video of a lot of catches, I'll have to take a look and see.

Yes. Drag and back-reeling do the same thing.

What will employing the drag do for me? Esp in the described situations -heavy cover winching?

Can't really tell from the photo. Looks mostly LM to me. The head looks a bit "smallmouthy" to me, but that could be the photo angle. If those are indeed bars along the sides -tough to tell in the photo- it could be a LMxSM cross. To tell you'd likely need some careful measurements. Are there both species in this water? If not, then even more unlikely.

Yes, that's very much part of the game. Plan B, etc. can be how to get that tangled fish outta there. Go in and dig em out. Slack up and guide them out. Wait them out. Twang the line, ... But, our experiences are similar -although your fish (esp in BC) are going to top out bigger than mine- wrapped fish tend to get off too often. If I can do it, I'll keep that head turned my way and won't give them a moment to get that head turned. Hey, if you got the head, the body and fins, must follow (unless it's an eel -ever tug-of-warred with one of those? ?). Main reason why foul-hooked fish are so awful to fight too. If I'd ever fouled a steelhead on 1kg line (or a 3kg line for that matter), I'd simply break it off and re-tie. Could be. I haven't noticed such a problem either. But then again, I've never tried winching with a Cardinal 4. Could just be a myth. Easy enough to test I would think.

Hey, Mobasser. The two best things I've found are mineral spirits and Dawn dish soap. And I've tried a number of things so far. Many of the de-greasing products you can buy are mineral-spirits, or soap, based. I use odorless MS and it works great. I use a toothbrush to scrub with. Then I wash the MS off with the dish soap. Then I wash the soap off with fresh water. Soaps can be corrosive over time. For some materials and finishes, Dawn alone is recommended. But, so far, I've not had MS be corrosive in any way to the metals and plastics I've used it with. And it's the fastest de-greaser I've used. Hope this helps.

Thanks @Bubba 460. Interesting perspective. Appreciate your chiming in. I think the apparent "confusion" in this thread (the derogatory comments... I just don't get) around pumping here has to do with the fact that I'm a back-reeler so there is no drag at play. I'm free to lock down, probably similar to what Bubba460 gets with 65# braid and 33lbs of drag. The problem I've had with pumping fish in heavy cover is that once the rod is maxed out, there is no way I can recover (rod angle for another pump) before the fish can turn its head down. Keeping the fish's head turned toward me is the surest way to keep them from wrapping up in cover... or prolonging a fight anywhere for that matter. And that requires 'winching'. I did not bring my question up to talk back-reeling. I frankly hadn't thought about it. When I need to do some real winching, I tend to use a casting reel, with heavy braid and drag locked down. Bubba's post makes clear, for me, that there is spinning gear that can winch. My opening question had to do with a myth(?) that worm-gear reels do not winch well. I'll head off triggering anyone any more by answering ahead that I skip better, further, with spinning gear than I currently can with casting gear. I've got some overhung brush and trees here that require some serious skipping to get back under. I recently bought a Quick 331 for this purpose. Was wondering if anyone could speak to worm-gear reels as a winch. But, if your drag isn't locked, I guess the question is moot. And... I stand by all the rest of what I offered about fighting, what I've come to call, "neutrally buoyant hydrofoils". The best way I know to understand what that means is to lock your drag down. Then try it with a 1kg line and feisty steelhead to really get a bead on what that means. Yeah, I know... blah, blah, blah...

Yup. As to stupid boating action, just be sure I’m not anywhere near your boat and all will be fine. I seem to have been the only consistent element in such troubles. I’m safe now, with gray hair and a float tube on a small pond.

Lost me. Moving on...

Somehow we are not understanding each other. Never said those small stripers are "hard-fighting". That wasn't the point. Read it again, or... not.

Let's not go there. Add that to high rod stalemating and... I'll jump overboard. So... I found a cool article about worm-gear reels (the author likes them, a lot), and in talking about gear mechanical efficiency said that w-g's, although the strongest and smoothest of gear systems, give up a bit in efficiency that only becomes practically at issue at very high gear ratios (8:1). The original comment I'd read (mentioned in the OP) about w-g reels 'binding' also offered that he'd only experienced anything like this in the high speed w-g reels. Again, I'll play around with them and see if I can even get one of my w-g reels to 'bind'.

I think that'd be angle IN the fish. Nuk nuk. OK... now I've ruining my own thread.

The Ugly Stick and its predecessor, the Howald Wonderod, truly are wonders. They have been so popular and durable that archeologists some day far in the future, digging deep enough, will probably name a layer the Ugly Stick layer. I've never owned an US, but caught plenty of bass with other glass rods once upon a time. But was eventually spoiled by graphite. Still haven't quite recovered, but am working on it with some new tech S-glass blanks to try out. Nice to hear you have a favorite rod that's been building memories with you. So, in summary, I guess I'll just have to take those old worm-gear reels out and see how they winch.

Yes... I'd give an LOL but... what I saw when the downrigger craze hit the Great Lakes wasn't all that funny. When angry fishers would come in to the shop and say, "It just broke!" Got to be that when I sold a rod (these were off the rack factory rods) I showed each person how NOT to break a rod. Esp how to pop a release free without folding the rod. Otherwise they were going to leave that shop with an Ugly Stick.

I anchor -a lot. Esp in a yak. It just blows and drifts around too much. In the tube too, but, those fins are at work too. And yeah, going really heavy helps a lot. I'm asking bc I recently picked up a DAM Quick 331 to use for skipping and winching. But someone mentioned that story about some of those old worm-gear reels -Card 4's I think specifically- binding -that is, being stopped cold. I know little, but have been getting curious about reel engineering -gears n stuff. I know this much, that I'd much rather winch with a casting reel. I've had a 441 as well for a long time (bought it, used, 35yrs ago at B.E. Tackle) but haven't done a whole lot of winching with it. Thought I'd just snap the handle off my BG instead. :)) No, what did you do there? Too sharp a turn for me!

It was the old Zebco (ABU made) Cardinal 4's that were being referred to. I have one, but haven't torque-reeled with it. I've never experienced this "binding", that I'm aware of. It's more of an academic question, since I had read that this was described as a problem once upon a time with the Cardinal 4's. All metal, but... I think no "crown" to the main gear --if you mean curved. I'd have to open mine up to see. ... OK, I just did; It's one flippin' screw. Main gear is not "crowned" (is flat topped), spiral cut, the worm is concave, I suppose for surface area contact? Oh yes! Oh my! ... Even on the Pro tours! I hate to even say it. When pulling bass out of heavy cover when they are not directly below me -I fish from shore or from float tube and yak- a lot of reeling can be required. Rods can only move so much line. Pumping can be necessary when fish are below you, giving you have a high rod angle to work with. But when I can have a low rod angle, which is much of the time bc I fish mostly shallow, and from the bank, float tube, or yak. There I've learned NOT to "pump", bc pumping, rod movement, spooks the fish into... doing unhelpful things, and prolonging the fight. Apply tension, stay smooth, don't spook em -before and after you hook them. When the fish are close in though, I use a lot of rod movement, angle changes; But remaining smooooth. Hate being stalemated by big fish close in. And I hate seeing it. When I see it with another angler, say when on the bank standing over that fish, I'm apt to tell them to just back up! Walk backwards to get that smooth lower angle pull. You can lower your rod from the bank too, and alter sides on the fish's head to counter, and even confuse, them. Same when in a boat: lower the rod angle and, if you have to, walk around the boat. The smoothest fights I've achieved has been with single-action fly tackle. I learned this being in the thick of hordes of school-sized striped bass (18-26"), where I've participated in up to 100 fish nights, The quickest way to lip them is not to move the rod. Stand it straight up and just reel with that single-action winch, towing them in, they not knowing what was up. They’d just go along for the ride. Things did get a little exciting when they got under the rod though! That's when they realized -felt- that something wasn't right. But low rod angles, switching sides, and steering them, confused them enough that… it was over quickly. Big fish in those shore-bound circumstances though sometimes required some beach walking -kind of feels like walking a dog- and backing up when they hit the surf edge. Just don’t spook ‘em!

What specific reels are you talking about? Have you ever used older worm-gear reels in this way? Is there truth to the "binding up" complaint? Thanks.

I generally use casting gear for torque-reeling fish up and out of cover. I'd read that the pro's used to complain about the older top-end worm-gear spinning reels (Quick's, Card 4's) would simply bind up and NOT reel when trying to crank fish up and out. Curious if anyone has experience with this. I have some of these worm-gear reels but realize I've tended to grab casting gear for this kind of fishing. The one reel I have used quite a bit for this kind of work has been a Daiwa "side-gear" design (a BG15) that doesn't appear to "bind up". It's not comparable to a casting reel for this kind of abuse, but I've done it, repeatedly. (At one point I actually snapped off the threads in the handle shaft while cranking out a bass). My question is: Does anyone have any experience with spinning reels for continuous torque-cranking of fish? I know they've come a long way in terms of gear efficiency. Which ones work? Or more interestingly for my purposes, which ones don't?

Search back for moon and lunar phases here on BR. Lots of good discussion.

Well... this is the kind of thing I've nerded out on. But, here goes... While tracking the bass spawn -closer than any sane fisher would do- I also kept note of the wild plum blossoming here. They appeared to coincide with the bass spawn, and do, but very generally. Yes, I suppose if you see X blossoms, then you can be thinking "bass spawn" -somewhere. But things get more chaotic, and less useful as a predicting tool, the closer I looked. What I found confusing, and therefore, not terribly predictive on a bush by bush and water by water basis, was that the individual plants, or groves, flowered as much as 3 weeks apart. Some of this is due to the site on which they grow, and some is apparently genetic variability. On my property I have an aspen grove. My neighbors next door have one too. I can throw a rock between them. (And sometimes I do! Those pesky neighbors! ) My grove blooms, leafs, and drops about 3 weeks later than my neighbor's does, every year. So, which groves do we follow? As to the bass themselves, I found spawn timing varied too. Generally, shallow ponds spawned earlier and deeper ponds spawned later, by as much as 2+ weeks. Lakes, a good month, or even more, later. And, on ponds the same size, and right next to each other, one might start spawning as much as 10 days later than the other. This had to do with volume, topography, and aspect to direct sunlight. In the end, I found -and have continued to find- that a thermometer, properly used, is the best predictor of spawn initiation. I'm still not sure what prompts, or indicates, the end of the spawn, as I never followed that far.

You know, I've never got a shot of a sleeping bass angler! Lord knows I've tried! Thanks for the observations on SM. No, not all bass have red teeth in the cold water period. I start to see it in the fall as water gets cold. I'd give a temp I've seen it starting but haven't bothered to track it down; Seems to be in the low 50s. And it's variable. Some fish have it and others "have a little" and still others, "Nope not red yet." It's most obvious in really cold water, and the reddest I've seen —brilliant scarlet, like fresh arterial blood (well oxygenated)— are fish caught in water below 40F, often through the ice. That said, Brian @Team9nine and I both have exchanged some photos of bass that have red teeth in the summer. These have never been the scarlet red teeth, that practically glow, but a dark red —like venous blood (depleted O2). And these have not been common. I did send Brian a photo of one with dark blue teeth though! Originally I did think it might be related to reproductive —or cold acclimatization— chemistry, or both. The current best info (from Bob Lusk) is that it's stress related —cold-stress. Yet here's an interesting observation that shocked me at first. I contacted a researcher who has done quite a bit of work on cold physiology in LMB. And he's in Canada. And he was going ice fishing that weekend! Could it be any better? He was unaware of red teeth, but watched for them as he fished. When he got back to me, he didn't say how many he caught, but he did not see any red teeth! What the...????! So... Here's my next hypothesis, one we can all get ahead on as a future myth : That bright red teeth are indeed cold-stress related. And that far northern LMB are adapted to the long cold winters up there. Many of "our" bass populations may be less so. It's been found experimentally that when northern and southern (not FL bass) bass swap regions, the northern bass do just fine down south. The southern ones die in northern winters. Add to this that many of our bass populations are from hatchery stock from... who knows where, it could be that many of our LM's are not well adapted to real cold? Another thing: I've never seen bloody tails and fins like I've seen in photos of early spring southern bass, leading people to believe that these fish are "digging beds" even though bass don't need to bloody their tails to clear a bed, and... many of those bloody-tailed fish are females. (And the beat goes on…) Interestingly (yet again —remarkable how that is), is that I have seen those bloody fins in northern pike. I never kept track of time of year on that and I've not caught them in a while (not many here). But, it could be that those literally bleeding fins in pike could be stress-related. It has appeared to me that, in pike, it's from capillaries bursting in the fins and even under the scales along the belly. Similarly, in the coldest of water, when I've seen the brightest red in bass teeth (obviously its well oxygenated blood), there's red in the anal fin and along the belly too, just under the skin, all the way up to the throat. You have to look real close to see it. At a glance the white belly has a pinkish glow to it. So, are there populations of LMB out there, besides those Canadian ones, that do not get red teeth in cold water? We seem to notice the ones with red teeth, but maybe not the ones without? As to crayfish munching causing red teeth in bass... Here's a mid-summer caught LM with not a glimmer of red in the teeth. And the teeth do not appear broken, bent, or missing. And what was in its stomach. What ever the red is, it ain’t from eating crayfish. I think we can put that one to rest. They actually have a peak sensitivity at the red end of the spectrum. It's the blue end they have a hard time discriminating -Which would mean that Black/Blue is really Black (or Black/Gray in really good lighting) to a bass. Speaking of "the beat going on". And yeah, if there's enough of them in there, you can feel em. Not much else feels like that. I did catch a small pike once that had a painted turtle in its stomach. Didn't have to kill that fish to find out; It was pretty obvious.

I think we can all be glad that we're not relying on me, or just anyone, to provide a weather forecast! And as to "the news"... don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater"! Yes, the sun is about the most predictable thing we've got.

Actually, some research into the mechanics of bass jaws has suggested that LM's and SM's jaws have evolved toward maximizing different jobs. The short jaws of SM's provide much greater bite pressure, and they’ve been found to use “biting” to extract crayfish from crevices. LM’s longer jaws make them less efficient at biting, but more efficient at suction. It’s suggested this is due to LM's evolving in softer substrates where suction is more effective. Presumably —and I'd have to look at the papers to see what was found about this— SM’s smaller mouths should also inc suction pressure, but over a much smaller, more focused, area. As to red teeth… Some SM’s have been found, at times and places, to get quite banged up on the forepart of the body from aggressively extracting craws from crevices. But this is external damage. I’ve not looked into “red teeth” in SM as I don’t have them here. It would seem that SM would be more likely to show “bloody” or damaged teeth owing to their biting ability. A perusal of internet images would probably provide a look. The SM's I've caught in NY (and they would number in the 1000's) never showed "damage" inside the mouth, at least that I can remember. Strikes me that "bloody" teeth is akin to bloody damaged tails from spawning. I've just not seen it, or been able to attribute it to bed digging. In the close-up video I've shot of bed-digging bass, they clear sediment with water pressure, the scarcely ever contacting the substrate. This could be different elsewhere of course. But most tail damage (usually scarring) is not from "bed-digging" but from sleeping, resting on bottom propped up on the bottom edge of the tail. Took me some time to finally video some sleeping bass.

In the moment, when you are casting, may not matter a whole lot. As bass are object-oriented in general. Which objects they are on must often be figured out in real time. That’s the simple answer. And we all have to decide what we have time for. But there are things worth knowing. Certain weed types are easier, or tougher, to fish through. Some weeds attract fish, including prey fishes, better than others. Some, like my nemesis the "Threadleaf's" (such as Sago), can't be fished through and luckily, don't hold fish of any type well. But, some waters have it in spades and it can be frustrating, esp with trebled lures. Chara (sand/skunk-grass) tends to indicate high water clarity, hard water, and crustaceans. But dense beds are like fishing over steel-wool. So, I'm finessing, but with 8 or even 10lb line if I can get away with it. Too many times I've had bass bury in the stuff, and in that clear water I can see their tail sticking out of that steel wool, 10ft down, and can’t do much about it, except wait em out. Then there’s the soft algae, like filamentous algae (“snot”). It tends to grow like a net across bottom first, and very early in the year. It actually begins under the ice esp along sun-incident shorelines. Then, as decomposition gasses build up, trapped under that net, the whole thing separates from the bottom and one day you come and… you’ve got a dense surface mat having you wishing you’d brought some frogs along. Places with other weeds already established can end up with that filamentous algae tangled and draped all over the submergents. Touch to fish through ad can block light causing those beds to die-back. And then, when the algae dies, it can be like fishing through... snot. Weed types can be quite seasonal, so they may or not be there when you return another time. Different weeds need different amounts of light too, so water clarity, and longer-term sky conditions can really affect them, which type is present, how deep they grow, and how healthy they are. Different weeds grow best in certain substrates. Sunny periods can also cause plankton blooms, which can decrease water clarity and cause weed die-back in the depths. Where this info can help most I think, besides the ecological clues, is in the planning of an outing, even for familiar waters. And on new water, it can clue us in on what to expect ecologically and conditions-wise. That is, if that info is available. Often, you have to do it yourself, and also realize that things will change over time, both seasonally and year-to-year. The number of times I've hit a familiar water body expecting to be using M power tackle, only to find the milfoil has had a banner year, or, worse, the coontail has taken over. Or vice versa. I once hit a pond I knew pretty well. But a cloudy summer and the introduction of a few too many grass carp cleaned out the gorgeous milfoil beds that I was so looking forward to fishing. Instead, it was a swimming pool, and I didn’t have a finesse rig with me. I have learned to always throw a finesse rig or two in the truck. They may stay there, but often, I’m glad I have them.