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Since we're still discussing KVD and Cayuga, here's a little something tied to Paul's picture and question that I ran by him off-line. What follows is a large portion of the write-up that another site did covering KVD's win on Cayuga that Paul used in his example (literally copy/paste). What I have inserted in bold are my comments in regards to how one Spoonplugger/structure fisherman (myself) "interprets," if you will, what is being written, but using "our/Buck's" terms - kind of a thought deconstruction. Lots of ways you can spin/analyze the scenario, whether Paul's "form/fit/function," or some other interpretation. My point was simply that based on the details, you could easily construct an explanation that fits nicely with Buck Perry's message and teachings. And a thought in regard to Todd2's question: Just another thought based on Buck's guidelines. Anything in shallow water (8-10' or less), you have to fish the entire water column, top, middle and bottom. However, once you move out into deep water, you only fish the bottom. That's not to say that there aren't fish suspended up higher, but in most cases the more active fish that you are likely to get to bite are the ones that have moved in contact with the structure (on bottom). If the suspended fish are active at all, you'll likely discover this in the process of your fishing by them either hitting your bait on the drop before it ever reaches bottom, or hitting as you reel in after fishing the bottom. But you don't waste much time intentionally trying to find and catch suspended fish (that may or may not be there) above these structures in deep water. -T9

Lunch break today near a pond.Thought I'd give it a try.15 minutes later this was the result.She bit a 4 inch GY senko in watermelon.Absolutely incredible fight with 8 pound test.I helped the drag by stripping line off several times.The fish was nearly symmetrical at 21.5 inches long,and 21 inch girth.Extremely heavy bodied fish.Weight chart says between 8-9 pounds.Thank you Lord!

Well, after I carved the bass, I decided to try a couple more just to see if I could really do this. I believe I'm getting better, and I am really enjoying this. Something interesting to do in the off season. 7 degrees here in Cincinnati this morning. Hootie

Sounds like he was fine-tuning depth and speed Y'all are cracking me up with all of this 'Why" talk. I don't think "Why" means the same thing to all of you guys in this conversation One mans why is structure, anothers is wheres the bait, anothers is some other variable in the equation. The structure is why they are there from a big picture standpoint, the water color(light penetration)/weather(cold front, stable, etc.)/current seasonal pattern and temp will have an effect on what depth and what type of structure they are relating to currently, so there's another why, Then the location of the food source will pinpoint their location further still-are there weeds? Current? There's another why. What baits would they react to? Why one retrieve or color and not another on this day? You can drown in the details sometimes, but the one thing that always seems to remain constant is the structure(the foundation), they'll be relating to it and moving on it along those predictable routes more often than not, so you've narrowed the search down considerably once you begin to embrace that concept. You can come up with whatever story you want to for why they were on that specific spot at that specific time eating that specific bait on that specific day, but you either a ) stumbled onto them completely by accident, or b ) you were eliminating water on a given piece of structure where you expected to find them at some point shallow-deep-or in between :):) The big thing is, getting it in your head right and understanding it. Dated or not, there's no more thorough explanation of the concept than BP's. If you read and understand that book, and I mean really pay attention to the details, it all starts to click better. On the other hand, you can get lost pretty badly if you try to pick and choose which parts of the concept are important! I didn't mean for any of that to sound like a rant, I just honestly believe that the structure concept is a great way to actually simplify the process, even though it takes an investment of time on the front end to learn it and change gears so to speak. And no, it's not 100% perfect, but it's answered more "why's" for me than any other book or article I've ever read, or any fishing experience I've ever had, and combined they are many

No rule, but instead what Buck referred to as a Guideline - he had a bunch of them. The nice thing being you didn't have to care or worry about why a fish did or didn't, would or wouldn't, do something - it really doesn't matter. You follow the guidelines and they'll tip the odds in your favor for catching fish as quickly and simply as possible. It reminds me a lot of Rick Clunn's mentality. I have an article where they were asking him (Clunn) about deep water bass fishing, and how he determined and fished for deep bass. His point was simple - he didn't care why they were there. Thermocline? pH? temperature? Didn't matter - his theory was you only stop and fish if you see fish on the finder, regardless of "why" they might be there. I love, and can appreciate, the science and details as much as anyone. But I've come to the realization that simplicity in approach and reason with fishing has a certain allure to it also -T9

Here's the BFS combo I put together recently. Haven't yet had a chance to fish it with the new spool. Whole outfit weighs 9.8 oz. REEL: Daiwa Alphas SV 105 SHL HH air bfs bearings HH orange dress up parts Carbontex Drag DIY BFS spool Tatula 90mm handle MB hypercork knobs ROD: Major Craft Corzza 6'7"L BFS (2 piece)

What I meant by scientific method was more about the process of elimination and less about "scientific fishing" perse. I don't think he was running around with a ph meter or anything like that In other words, if his theory was that the fish would tend to retreat to a deep spot on structure, and not just any one, but the fastest breaking one with the most logical access to deeper water, then he would test all of the other options on that piece of structure and many other similar ones, before stating it as a fact. He would set out to disprove his own theory, rather than look for ways to support it, and if it came through the process still standing, then it's considered a fact (to him) for all intents and purposes. Gravity is still just a theory too

So dont let the small details get in the way of the overall picture , because there is a good chance the assumption is wrong .

I think you're close, but see if this explains where we're coming from. From a Spoonplugging perspective, Buck wrote that it is likely no two fishing trips are ever likely the same - there are simply too many variables; time, temp, weather, water clarity, oxygen, cloud cover, fishing pressure, and on and on. If that is the case, then how could you ever rely on any of those things to help you catch fish consistently each time you hit the water? In your example, what if the next time you hit that spot there are no shad up shallow, or even anywhere around? Or it's a different time of year? You still think you can repeat your catch in the same manner? Instead, what rarely changes are the structure, breaks and breaklines in the area that the fish likely are using. As such, you approach each day assuming you'll have to relocate those fish in the area. Today they may be shallow, deep, or somewhere in-between ? And you won't necessarily catch them at the same depth or speed/presentation. In that regard, you were speculating that your bass might have followed the shad up onto the flat, but even you don't know if that's the real "why" they were there - and the point being does it matter? Because if they're not there, you'll adjust your looking shallower or deeper, and when you find them and catch 'em, you'll have a new theory as to why - but so what...you'll still catch them ? -T9 Edit - just saw Catt replied while I was typing with a simpler explanation ?

If you can remove the snow with a wisk broom it's not a blizzard.

An old timer friend of mine (a d**n good fisherman, as well) always says, "Why? Because." His point was that the observation, and putting the puzzle together for that trip was more important than figuring out why. If you get to the "why" part, then great. Often you do not.

Very Early & Late in the season - definitely Mid-Day; looking to fish the warmest part of the afternoon. During the warmer months, sunrise & sunset bites for me are often about the same, both potentially good. Sunrise topwater seems better. But let us not neglect the Night bite here now either. Even though it's a little spooky it's a still a good time to sneak up on those big tricky bass. A-Jay

If you have some really old raps, the silver and gold are really bright, actual foil, vs the dull silver and gold sold now. I got a bunch at an estate auction and it is like a different color compared to the new stuff, pretty cool actually.

Simplifying is essentially how we predators get anything done amid such complexity. I've been wired a bit differently however (I blame a rock bass that tugged on my line when I was 5 years old). I want to know why. It's what drives my fishing. I was perusing some of Buck's course books last night, and in one he said (paraphrased) that fisherman rarely ask WHY. But, in his writings, he does a great job of what and how, but precious little why. What and how are indispensable. But I'm a why guy. Can't help it. Even if I'm the only one interested.

Not sure there's a rule there. But bottom contact is often the best, probably 90+% of time: fish are more secure, prey can be easier to catch against bottom, contact triggers. But... not always, depending on what's going on. Fish could be resting or feeding up high. If former they could be suspended, neutrally buoyant, as riverbasser suggests. If latter they could be up and chasing pelagic prey. If there is vertical cover there, they could be doing either as well. Peri-spawn (pre-spawn when spawn is imminent, during spawn, immediately post-spawn) bass may be suspended high in the water column -females esp- at or near the depth they're be spawning at. And...I often check aggressiveness of bass by fishing high to see if they'll move, chase. If not, I'll go down after them. BTW: This is Catt's terminology. I used it to hook back up with the OP.

I hear it over and over on this forum, people trying to keep from using spin tackle, using bait casting when it is a real challenge. This is madness. Fishing is supposed to be fun, so use spin for the light stuff and bait casting for the rest, and forget the frustration. I hear all these "I can bait cast 1/16 oz lures with bait cast" and I ask "Up wind?". If you want to be one who can cast the lightest lures on baitcast, go for it. If you want to catch more fish, with less frustration and problems that keep your lure out of the water, go for the easiest to use tackle, sometimes spin. "

Like most things I like to pursue, it's a mix of science and art. With practice comes skill.

Agreed. He did say a lot about how he's always learning and will never know it all -too many variables basically. There are no EXPERTS I think is how he has put it. I'm not sure how truly scientific his methods really were. Organized, perceptive, and well executed, yes. However, I've never been sold on "scientific fishing". I believe that's virtually as mutually exclusive in practice as it in semantics. That said, what he put together was pretty impressive body of work. And he knew how to go about it.

Great conversation; It’s such a pleasure. I "liked" pretty much everything. Started to multi-quote and gave it up there are so many great comments. I agree with all of it, which tells me we're all pretty much on the same page, give or take. If I could make a summary comment it would be in the recognition of the myriad variables we all know -or eventually discover- summed up in A-Jay's "chasing unicorns". And, Brian, I've also gone GoPro. Yeah, and I'm hoping to explain a few things along the way. As I write (about... nature stuff) I am constantly aware of the variables and how difficult it is to make "statements". But I've grown used to it, having had enough experiences in the sciences to fathom the fact that such inquiries are surrounded by error bars, and that knowledge (despite touted as the key to successful fishing) is mostly incomplete. I sum up my fishing this way: Although fishing may require a lot of knowledge, planning, observation, and execution, on the water we're flying by the seat of our pants. And I joke that I start re-writing history as soon as I leave the water. All I can hope for is that I've done enough homework on the variables that I can at least consider them in my final narrative -what my 40years of journaling has been all about. Along the lines of John's post above, I recently shot a video journal called Bluebird Blue, in which I fish a small "Swimming Pool" of a pond under post-frontal blue. There were other anglers on that pond while I was there, and they all blanked. The most outwardly capable of them (by speak, tackle quality, and enthusiasm) told me he'd been crushing them over the last week with "horizontal baits", it being "fall". I smiled and thought to myself, "Oooh boy, today you are headed for a "fall" alright." An hour or so later he was packing out, fishless, and said he was going to other ponds "to find some biters". I shot my video with the pond to myself that included underwater video of bass happily hunting in 2fow under those bluebird skies and clear water. I caught bass (by finesse) and finished with my "Blue-pers" for the day -me spooking bass after bass, showing why those fish were so darn hard to catch. It wasn't because those bass had lock-jaw, went deep, hid in inside turns, crawled into crevices, etc.... . Instead, it was MOST simply because they were so ready to turn inside out at anything out of place. I emphasize "MOST" because it's not the whole story, of course, as there were other variables at play. But the bass's shift from aggressive hunting to vigilance was the first, and largest, hurdle. Knowing the variables well enough to consider which of them are likely (error bars again) most significant in the moment is how I play the game; How I think we all play the game, as best we can. After all we're all merely mortal, unlike the likes of Buck Perry. Or so it would seem.

I think sometimes you can try to make assumptions on the why part. One situation comes to mind. Fishing a a large, deep ADK lake (Upper Saranac), we ran into a nasty cold front, and everyone was saying the bite was off. My feeling is that fish that prefer deep water are less affected by weather at the surface - cooling temps, barometric pressure, wind, etc. We froze our butts off in the middle of summer, but had a banner day fishing deep points and boulder fields. By deep, I mean 15-25', with even deeper water nearby. We even had a passenger boat his PB smallmouth. It wasn't huge by Erie standards, but at 3+ lbs., a trophy for the north country, where the growing season is around 3 months. In that sense, I've learned to make an assumption about "why" - the weather affects the shallow bass, and shuts them down, while deeper bass are still active - though, we still focused on structure, and how we found the fish were relating to it. The rules, or guidelines, didn't change. Wind swept points and islands, with deep water access, and deep flats with boulders, again near deep water produced. Maybe my "why" answer is wrong, but that assumption has paid off more than once.

I can understand this mindset and it's been a challenge for me to understand or decide if why is something I should be giving more attention to. In the past, I spent quite a bit of time & effort trying to figure out why a bite was good or bad or why a bait produced one time & not another. I expended even more energy on the why's & why not's of spots, lakes & locations: keeping this response along the lines of the OP about structure. When it was all said & done - instead of as asking why and expecting to be able to answer it definitively, I ask maybe and hope for perhaps a few pieces of the puzzle with results being the final answer. Reading @Team9nine response above, I happen to agree with the mantra that because virtually none of the success in bass fishing is 100 % repeatable 100% of the time, "answers" are like unicorns . . . . . . Each angler's approach to bass fishing is different and mine starts with structure and movement. It offers a starting point to maybe find the bass and perhaps have some understanding of where they are heading. Right here is where I used to ask Why. Almost every time I expected the answer to revolve around food, but as mentioned above, the variables are many; weather, cheaper rent, the price of gas, who knows. . .I'm good with finding them wherever they may be and hopefully getting a few of the fatter ones to eat. A-Jay

Why & if are the two biggest words in the dictionary! I don't need to know why they're hitting spinnerbaits instead of crankbaits, I just need to know which they're hitting! I don't need to know why the shallow bite is on & not the deep bite, I just need to know which bite is on! Why & if are the two biggest words in the dictionary! I don't need to know why they're hitting spinnerbaits instead of crankbaits, I just need to know which they're hitting! I don't need to know why the shallow bite is on & not the deep bite, I just need to know which bite is on! What I do need to know is "why" am I double posting?

I wonder if the Mods would be OK with re-starting this popular thread anew for 2017? My first post was last year to mention that DSG was doing it's usual year end clearance in January. I have greatly enjoyed the board for a lot more than just the bait monkey-sponsored threads. This year DSG is starting 2017 with a buy 5 clearance/get 5 clearance sale. The "get 5" are the cheapest 5 of your lot of 10. I checked. Examples that I have seen on clearance include certain Rage plastics, VMC hooks, Bandit cranks, DD22's and older craw-colored Rapalas. Exactly what is on sale varies from store to store (e.g. some have VMC shakey heads on, some have certain Rage shellcrackers, some don't).

Theres an old , 200 acre reservoir I fish a lot . The last day I fished it last October I was trolling a 14 foot jon boat across a major creek arm , powered by an electric motor only . Watching my depth finder I saw a lot of fish marks and shad about 15 foot deep on a featureless bottom .After tossing a marker buoy I cast a lipless crank , let it set , hopped it back and preceded to catch about 50 bass . Now I wanted to know "why" . After I was finished with the spot I started searching the bottom for structure and found a well defined creek channel 15 to 20 yards away . Up shallow the channels are silted in but out deep there it was . Just speculation here but I always try to "connect the dots " .Maybe the bass were relating to the channel but followed shad out on the flat . I've been thinking about it ever since and planning how i'm going to dissect that area next year . i might be wrong but I plan on pulling some real hawgs from that creek channel .

Yeah Catt, nothing like a hyacinth Matt circling cypress trees and knees...

Mine arrived today!

Going OT, but back then, I think "why" in regards to a lot of environmental questions was simply unknown. Not that they didn't want to explain why, but they actually didn't know. That said, Buck did always say that every time you caught a bass, you needed to ask yourself "why" that fish was there (more in relationship to how he got there though). Technology now allows us to dig deeper and get answers to a lot of these questions, but back in the 1950s and 1960s when much of Buck's theories were developed and shared, they didn't have readily available and affordable things like personal underwater cameras, tiny radio transmitters for telemetry tracking, lithium powered micro batteries and transmitters, etc. They barely even had depthfinders - lol. I don't think they could explain a lot. Instead, they used angling as the means to identify "what is," and then fit the explanation to the result. What else could they do? What amazes me is how well some of these theories still hold up 60 years later. I have to admit I get a big kick these days watching all these GoPro anglers, offering a host of explanations for why they're catching fish in their videos - "They're feeding on crawdads in the rocks, and my bait is a perfect match," or "The wind is blowing into this pocket stirring up the invertebrates and piling up plankton, and the shad are following," even, "These rocks are holding heat and making these bass more active," yada, yada, yada. Did you cut that fish open and see what it was feeding on? Do you somehow see these schools of baitfish in the water you say these fish are feeding on? Did you take a temperature gauge and test this rock heating theory out? In a way, things haven't changed 60 years later -T9

I understand both points y'all are making. Team9 keep it simple and Paul asking why. Both are good points and I don't think team9 is saying don't ever question the details but I wanted to add that asking "why" every time I catch a fish has probably helped me more than anything else when it comes to finding and catching fish. Its how I started to learn how to develop a pattern and in my opinion is KEY to consistently catching fish.

That's an excellent question! I can only speak for myself, but in my experience structure puts NO constraints on fish depth. Depth constraints are imposed by other stuff like water temperature, thermocline, oxycline, light level and last but not least, 'forage'. All the same, the underlying structure (terrestrial contour) serves as the magnet. Roger

If you're still mastering the baitcaster, I'd recommend mono. 15 pound Big Game will handle almost any application in bass fishing, and you can get a big 1/4lb. spool for less than $10.

I use a Senko, either wacky or T rigged. The other bait that has been an excellentfollow up bait is a Ned rig. I had one day in a tournament it was guaranteed, if a fish missed it would eat the Ned.

Still playing, and I need to learn how to control that needle and paint flow better. I got a little heavy on the blue on he till plate but I don't think the fish will care when it's crash'n through a brush pile.

Yup that is the one, it has a boot tail as well? Really curious on how it works for you. Over hyped or not, the shadow raps got me fish and big musky bites, they bit me off, but were close enough to see it happen. Scatter raps have been really good to me, River and lake. Rippin rap is a good bait, but need to work with it some more to figure out the optimal triggering retrieve, RES got me more fish the week I fished both. Oddly I do better with their new stuff than there old stuff.

KISS, can't be more simple than ......... SHAD RAP, there you go.

I went to Finland this year for a few weeks and I was really excited because I thought they would have a bunch of crank baits that we don't have here in the states and the packaging would be in Finnish, etc. Nope, same d**n lures we have in the states, same packaging, and about 40% more expensive. I was really bumbed out, but I got some cool Abu Garcia lures.

Oh boy, there are some Rapala fan boys out there.........somehow the discussion went to taking personal responsibility for hard bait purchases, lol. All I'm sayin guys, is that for the novices out there trying to start a collection of baits that cover the different techniques and parts of the water column, Rapala has a vast (some might say dizzying) array of choices. So it is hard(er) for the novice to narrow down the field and just get a few "jerkbaits", or a couple "squarebills". I love buying tackle, but I have learned (from BR) that less baits a lot of times equals more, so I try to K.I.S.S. Heck, the OCD in me is ticked that I can't get the same exact colors in lipless cranks as I have in squarebills from SK. If ever there was a reason for the phrase: "Some lures are for catching fish, others for catching fishermen", Rapalas lineup comes to mind. Of course that's not to say some of their lures wont catch fish, but one starts to wonder just how many different types of black shoes a woman really needs to own.......

7-2, Bass pro exclusive chatterbait in a bluegill pattern.

People here in the south really do flip out over a little snow. All the eggs, milk, bread & cheese are gone from the local grocery stores. Lol. Never really understood that. If I'm getting snowed in I'd rather have steak!

Regarding fishing too deep on structure is a common mistake IMO. Bass usually don't chase anything down into deep water very far. The reason is they are not physically biult to see underneath them without rolling to one side, they see everything in front or above perfectly! The fact is bass see your lure coming down through the water column or hear/feel it crawling along the structure....they know it's in the neighborhood. Just how deep the bass will go down to get something is up for debate, no question about going forward or up to strike. This is why knowing the depth zone bass are using is important. Tom

My advice is learn how to remove a backlash without cutting the line. You do this by not trying to pull out the loops. After you get the backlash slowly pull out the loose line until it stops...don't continue pulling any line. Put your thumb tight onto the spooled line, with the loops, and wind all the loose line back onto the reel while keeping tight thumb pressure. Now slowly pull off the line until all the loops are gone without yanking on the line. Carefully wind the line back onto the reel, backlash is gone without cutting. Search for a vedio. Another trick with braid is pulling off 60 yards of line and tape over the remaining braid using Teflon plumbers tape, just a few wraps to keep the line tight during the cast. 60 yards is more than enough line to bass fish with. If for some reason you need more the braid cuts through the tape easily. I also use Fins Windtamer braid, doesn't backlash or wind knot like Power Pro. Tom

I have caught more fish with Shad Raps than with all my other cranks put together, thousands of fish since that day in 1985 when I purchased my first SR, btw, my PB ( 6.6 kg ) was caught with a SR that I still carry around.

5.5 pound smallie on a lipless in the spring on St Clair. It's almost impossible not to catch them.

Shadow rap,DT fat,husky jerk

I was thinking more along the lines of not being afraid to use 65# braid on the same rod. Anyone who'll put 6# on an XH is probably using a spinning rod upside down to crank with their right hand. Lol

Had a pretty good redemption today, my little brother has a tournament on the 19th so we went to look for some fish on Lake Anna. Found them in 35FOW and put a dozen in the boat, biggest was the low 4 I'm holding, she wouldn't sit still on the scales but I wanted to get her back since they can have a tough time coming from that deep water. I apologize for the scratched out background, that was for a little fun to send to his friends who will also be fishing that tournament, then I realized it was the only picture I had of the fish! I think this was my last outing before I head back to school, gonna be a long winter

Well, training your thumb is a lot less expensive with monofilament line. Another alternative is tightening your brakes a notch or two and adjusting the spool tension. You will lose a little distance, but this will reduce "professional overruns" dramatically. Finally, if you decide to stick with braided line, move up to at least 30# and I prefer 40#.

My heart goes out to you. I can't imagine what you are going through. It is Ok to be sad as this is an incredible loss. Just remember when you are really down that your parents would not want you to be miserable. They would want you to be happy and live your life to the fullest.

big jump between ML and MH. i only use ML rods for finesse stuff like dropshot and ned rig. ML is not ideal for hook sets on t-rigged plastic IMO

Rod power is it's basic lifting strength before the rod bottoms out and lift any more weight. This sounds like it could be a standard; unfortunately no standard exist! power in number verses power by letter designator. 1 = light or L 2 = medium light or M! 3 = medium or M 4 = medium heavy or MH 5 = heavy or H 6 = extra heavy XH 7 = extra heavy XXH The numbers represent the dead weight a rod can lift before being fully bent. Action is how the rod bends under light loads pulling down the rod tip with light load. Paraboliic the rod bends from tip to 1st guide near the reel evenly. Moderate the rod bends from the tip down about 1/2 the rod length. fast the rod bends from the tip down about 1/4 the rod length. extra fast the rod bends from the tip down about 1/8 the rod length. The more a rod bends the slow the power is applied and easier it is to cast lures. The faster a rod bends the power loads faster, better feel of what a lure is doing underwater and more difficult to cast. Crank baits or deep diving lures are easier to cast using moderate action rods. Jigs, worms that you need to feel and get solid hook sets with fast action rods. Hope this helps. Tom

One of my friends called this afternoon to tell me he was forced into a tree by two pit bulls at a pond he was fishing. No cell phone, so he sat up there patiently for 45 minutes until they lost interest.