extra-fast actions

[jimmyjoe]

  This goes back many years. I'm asking because I know things can change.

 

   I've been under the impression that extra-fast action rods are more prone to break than fast or moderate. The reason is that the transition (or "knee") of the blank, where the softer tip transitions to the stiffer backbone, is confined to a shorter portion of the blank, and therefore undergoes greater stress under sudden load. A fast or (especially) moderate action distributes this stress over a greater portion of the blank, and therefore are stronger.

 

   Right or wrong? 

 

   As always, thanks for the feedback. ?        jj

[Catt]

When I break a rod it's usually because of operator error.I've never had a bass break a rod.

[Boomstick]

48 minutes ago, Catt said:

When I break a rod it's usually because of operator error.I've never had a bass break a rod.

I've broken two rods, one was my fault although to be honest it shouldn't have broken that easily (I was trying to pop a stuck lure free). The other broke when I leant it to my kid, he picked up a fairly small and normally insignificant weed with the drag set barely over a pound and it broke. I really don't think he did anything wrong.

 

But I always keep my drag set within reason.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Nope. What you’re seeing is the emergence of faster actions and higher modulus blanks simultaneously. Use correctly, a fast action high modulus rod is incredibly powerful. However, they are intolerant of rough handling and high-sticking. These bad habits that should have been corrected long ago but the nature of the tackle let us get away with it. 

[The Maestro]

There might be something to that as the blank 'shuts off' closer to the tip where it's thinner in diameter making it more susceptible to breaking especially from high sticking as DVT mentioned.

[Phil77]

6 hours ago, Catt said:

When I break a rod it's usually because of operator error.I've never had a bass break a rod.

I broke a $175 dollar rod trying to free a less than $2 texas rig from a tree on the bank, felt like a real dumb&*% on that one. I snagged one I had sitting vertically behind me in a yak a long time ago, unfortunately never had a fish break one. 

[jimmyjoe]

   I deliberately used the phrase "sudden load" and not the word "fish". The reason is simple:  after I break it, I don't care what I broke it on. I just want to hedge my bets and not break it.  ?     jj

[T-Billy]

7 hours ago, Catt said:

When I break a rod it's usually because of operator error.I've never had a bass break a rod.

MmmHmm. Brain farts are the #1 cause of broken rods.

[CrashVector]

I can honestly say...in my entire life...I've never broken a rod.

[king fisher]

Murphy's law seems to be way more of a factor, than type of rod.  I don't seem to notice any difference rod action makes, when I step on a rod,, or slam one in a car door, they all break the same.

[PressuredFishing]

11 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

  This goes back many years. I'm asking because I know things can change.

 

   I've been under the impression that extra-fast action rods are more prone to break than fast or moderate. The reason is that the transition (or "knee") of the blank, where the softer tip transitions to the stiffer backbone, is confined to a shorter portion of the blank, and therefore undergoes greater stress under sudden load. A fast or (especially) moderate action distributes this stress over a greater portion of the blank, and therefore are stronger.

 

   Right or wrong? 

 

   As always, thanks for the feedback. ?        jj

The higher carbon the blank e.g Im7 im8 etc etc or 24, 48 ton etc are usually weaker. Lower graphite rated rods or a composite is much much more durable. Take all of this for a grain of salt because there is no one size fits all rating, my lews im7 feels crisper and of higher modules than quantum rods that have im8 blanks. Not all rods are equally measured. 

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, PressuredFishing said:

.....   a composite is much much more durable

 

   I think so, too. Fiberglass and high-glass-content composite seem much more durable and able to absorb shock than graphite.

   And yet ..... I can't think of one single extra-fast-action rod that is composite.

 

   Hmmmm .........  ???         jj

[PressuredFishing]

1 hour ago, jimmyjoe said:

 

   I think so, too. Fiberglass and high-glass-content composite seem much more durable and able to absorb shock than graphite.

   And yet ..... I can't think of one single extra-fast-action rod that is composite.

 

   Hmmmm .........  ???         jj

I agree I dont even know if it is completely possible because composite is graphite infused with eglass/fiberglass so it will usually have a slower action.

[jimmyjoe]

4 hours ago, PressuredFishing said:

I agree I dont even know if it is completely possible because composite is graphite infused with eglass/fiberglass so it will usually have a slower action.

 

   Whoa, Nelly! Hold on ... I may have taken the wrong road back there at the last turn! ? ? Sorry 'bout that!

 

   Composite has a slower speed. Graphite has the fastest speed, composite is next, and fiberglass is the slowest speed. "Speed" (not settling time) means the time to return to center after you deflect the rod tip a given amount and then let go. So if you take the tip, hold it away from the rod axis 12 inches and let go, the amount of time it takes to re-center itself is "speed". It might be a hundredth of a second, it might be .015 seconds. More time is slower speed.

   That has nothing to do with "action", which is the point along the blank where the tip deflection transitions into backbone. Yes, the "action" is described with words that sound like speed: fast, slow and moderate-fast. I think that's unfortunate, but there are a lot of things about this industry that are unfortunate. If you use the rod filter provided by Tackle Warehouse, they list "taper" for the same thing we call "action", and they use the word "action" for the same thing we call "power".

   It's messed up. Totally messed up. And it has been messed up for years.

   I can't be sure, but I think a lot of this confusion comes from flycasting terminology. I like to blame them for lots of stuff. ? ?

 

   ANYWAY ..........  ? ......... what I was asking about was what I call action, or the point on the blank where the floppy tip transitions to the stiff backbone. An extra-fast action is one that has a floppy tip that is relatively short, and transitions to the stiff backbone out towards the higher end of the rod. On a 7' rod, an extra-fast might transition 15 or 16" from the tip. A fast action would transition maybe 2' or even 28" from the tip, and a moderate-fast would transition maybe 3' or so from the tip.

   So I didn't understand why a manufacturer didn't make a rod out of composite material that had an extra-fast action, or tip that transitioned out there towards the end of the rod. I just thought it was doable, that's all.

 

   So anyway .... to get back on track.

   I was asking whether rods that transitioned way out towards the end (extra-fast) were more susceptible to breakage than rods that transitioned more towards the middle of the blank, like fast and moderate-fast. I think @The Maestro understood what I was getting at, but I'm not too sure whether all the other people who responded to my question are on board.

 

   Sorry for the confusion.

 

   I hate it when things get complicated. ? ? ?        jj

[Catt]

2 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

I'm not too sure whether all the other people who responded to my question are on board.

 

I understand you're question, I just don't believe one "taper" is more susceptible to breakage.

 

First there's no industry standards, my Powell Inferno is a Medium Heavy X-Fast & so is my Dawia Tatula, both are totally different, 

 

Second I strongly believe it's more operator error than rod design.

 

How's the rod cared for when not fishing. Bounced around in the boat or truck.

What's anglers skill set

Drag totally locked down 

Braided line

The biggest one is trying to get un-hung.

 

[Lead Head]

NFC makes several extra fast composite blanks. Look into the Delta line, and the X-ray neo. 

[CrashVector]

I've only witnessed two people breaking rods.

 

One was trying to pull a snag free, and the other was setting the hook on a bass like he was a wannabe powerlifter at the Olympic games.

 

The second person was an ex brother in law, and I told him "I told you..it's a 5 lb fish...why are you setting the hook like you're trying to yank him clean out of the water and straight into the boat anyhow?"

[CrashVector]

13 hours ago, PressuredFishing said:

The higher carbon the blank e.g Im7 im8 etc etc or 24, 48 ton etc are usually weaker. Lower graphite rated rods or a composite is much much more durable. Take all of this for a grain of salt because there is no one size fits all rating, my lews im7 feels crisper and of higher modules than quantum rods that have im8 blanks. Not all rods are equally measured. 

 

Modulus strength refers to the relative stiffness of the graphite fibers themselves.

 

40ton is stiffer than 30ton, etc.

 

They are more stiff, not weaker.

 

However due to physics, a stiffer rod is inherently more brittle (which doesn't mean weaker necessarily) due to the trade off that MUST be made between stiffness and brittleness.  A sheet of glass is very laterally stiff, but extremely brittle.

 

High modulus graphite is stiffer than lower modulus, and therefore lighter and more sensitive.  The brittleness is overcome by the use of flexible resins in higher end rods, or blending low and high modulus graphite fibers, or in the case of composite rods, blending it with fiberglass.

 

However, with advances in technology (like 3M Powerlux), higher modulus graphite rods can be made to be extremely durable, and higher end rods almost always use high modulus graphite blanks.

 

My lower end rods use 24ton.  My mid-grade rods are 30ton.  My high end rods are a 36/40ton blend.

[new2BC4bass]

15 hours ago, CrashVector said:

I can honestly say...in my entire life...I've never broken a rod.

I've broken one.  Fell face forward into a pile of rocks.  Nearly cried.  It was my favorite rod at the time and MSRP was almost $300 although I got mine for a lot less on closeout.  However....I have received several rods broken while being shipped if that counts. 

[jimmyjoe]

   Hey, @A-Jay! I saw the video of you breaking your rod in the thread on high-sticking started by @papajoe222. That was EXACTLY the kind of thing I was wondering about!  When you started the back lunge, the rod wasn't high enough to qualify as being high-sticked. But just a little give on the part of what was on the end of the line, and the resulting back-movement of your rod, and BOOM! ... there it was. Broken rod. I wondered whether a moderate action rod might not have saved you there.

   I can't be sure, but my impression is quite often, fishermen who set their hook strongly, especially with extra-fast action rods, are right on the edge of high-sticking as well as breaking their rods. A little too much give and backward movement, and the best of intentions go south. 

   Now, more than ever, I realize why I like fiberglass rods. They're not perfect, but they have some really nice characteristics.           jj

[Eric 26]

In my best Dos Equis guy voice…….”I don’t always break my fishing rods but when I do I prefer them to be cheap or warrantied” ??

[PressuredFishing]

1 hour ago, CrashVector said:

 

Modulus strength refers to the relative stiffness of the graphite fibers themselves.

 

40ton is stiffer than 30ton, etc.

 

They are more stiff, not weaker.

 

However due to physics, a stiffer rod is inherently more brittle (which doesn't mean weaker necessarily) due to the trade off that MUST be made between stiffness and brittleness.  A sheet of glass is very laterally stiff, but extremely brittle.

 

High modulus graphite is stiffer than lower modulus, and therefore lighter and more sensitive.  The brittleness is overcome by the use of flexible resins in higher end rods, or blending low and high modulus graphite fibers, or in the case of composite rods, blending it with fiberglass.

 

However, with advances in technology (like 3M Powerlux), higher modulus graphite rods can be made to be extremely durable, and higher end rods almost always use high modulus graphite blanks.

 

My lower end rods use 24ton.  My mid-grade rods are 30ton.  My high end rods are a 36/40ton blend.

Yes this is a more educated way of what I was trying to say 

[Catt]

From a previous thread

 

Good evenin' folks,

I may be about to open a SERIOUS can of worms with this thread, but what the heck.....here goes anyway. Being in the blank distribution business, I get asked A LOT about the construction and makeup of the various graphite rod blanks that I sell. And, I have to say that whenever somebody asks me about modulus I just cringe! Here is why; It seems that about 90% of the folks that email me want to know what the modulus is of the blank(s) they are considering buying. When I ask "Why do you want to know that" they can't really give me an answer....they're just convinced that higher the IM rating is better. Here is how the conversation usually evolves:

Mr. Customer: What modulus is that blank made from?

Andy: Well, if you must know, it's about 40million Msi

Mr. Customer: What does that mean?

Andy: Well, it means the blank is made from the material you have come to know and love as IM6

Mr. Customer: Oh, that's too antiquated...I only fish with IM7 and higher.

Andy: Really? Did you know that the difference between IM6 and IM7 is not the modulus it's the tensile strength?

Mr. Customer: Really?

Andy: Yeah REALLY!

Mr. Customer: Eh Hhhmmm....erreer, uh, oh....well uh....well Bass Pro Shops says...

Andy: Forget Bass Pro shops...let's look at the numbers (at this point Andy whips out his trusty data chart that illustrates the differences between the different fibers that actually have IM designations). Here take a look at this. This comes from a chart put together by the folks at Hexcel (http://www.advancedcomposites.com/technology.htm)

The number on the far right is the modulus of the fiber, and the number in the middle is the elongation to failure or stretch.

Hexcel IM4 600 40

Hexcel IM6 760 40

Hexcel IM7 780 40

Hexcel IM8 790 44

Hexcel IM9 920 42

Mr. Customer: You Mean all this time I thought I was getting a higher modulus fiber with the higher IM rating, when what I was really getting is a fiber that stretches more?

Andy: Well, in some cases you are, and in some cases you arent. The fact is though that the difference between IM6 and IM7 is nothing in terms of modulus, and compared to IM8 it's only slightly higher. Wow...look at that IM9 actually has a lower modulus than IM8...go figure Now, many companies are using fibers with a much higher modulus, like 57 and even higher, however these fibers don't necessarily use the IM ratings. So, whenever you see a fiber with an IM rating...BUYER BEWARE! THE HIGHER THE IM RATING, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THE HIGHER THE MODULUS!!!

The point is this folks...just because you have a blank made from a high modulus fiber, doesn't means it's a good rod! And vice versa, just because you have a blank with a low modulus...even the original fiber blanks were made with (33 million) doesn't mean it's a bad or outdated rod. It's all about what the designer does with it.

I know there are some of you that may already know this, but judging from the amount of calls I get on a daily basis from folks who ONLY want IM7 or IM8, but can't really tell you why, I have to believe they don't really know what they are talking about at all. They've just been sucked into the marketing machine that leads people to believe that the higher the IM rating, the lighter and more sensetive the material, which is not always the case.

Be forewarned that there is A LOT more to graphite blank construction, performance, quality, sensetivity, weight etc... than just what modulus the fiber is. There are lots of other variables like flag patterns, and wall thickness, and resin systems, and mandrel design....It's all about the talent of the designer, and what he is able to do in terms of the sum of those variables...not just the friggin modulus!

Whewww...ok I feel better now...

My aforementioned explanation of modulus and IM ratings is by no means meant to be anything more than a brief primer for the folks who didn't realize what the differences with the IM ratings were. I hope this clears things up a bit, and I hope that some of you will chime in on this as well. Oh, here is a link to the Hexcel page for those of you who want to investigate the matter further. Do a search for IM6 and you'll get some interesting info. (if you're into that kind of techie junk).

[www.hexcel.com]

[www.advancedcomposites.com]

Now, this gives you some ammunition...next time you stroll into BassPro, and some yahoo tries to sell you a rod based on it's IM rating, ask him to explain to you why the higher IM ratings are better. When he replies by sayin' that the higher the IM rating means more sensetivity, less weight etc....just tell him that you have a blank at home made from IM2000, and see what he says.

Regards,

Andy Dear

Lamar Manufacturing

[Kenny Yi]

ive broken two rods before: the worst sound you'll ever hear is a loud "crack" when closing the door behind you

[LrgmouthShad]

18 minutes ago, Kenny Yi said:

ive broken two rods before: the worst sound you'll ever hear is a loud "crack" when closing the door behind you

I’ve broken a few myself. Never a fun time. One time my spinnerbait in the middle of a roll cast just barely clipped my rod tip hanging off the edge of my kayak and broke it clean off. I just stared for a second and cried on the inside.