Centrifugal Braking

[F14A-B]

Hmm, magic doesn't like the cold? Just another reason to use Shimano! I kid, I kid you!!...

[Tywithay]

lol... yeah i tried to stay simple, but i am afraid I failed miserably... This may be a better explanation. magnetic breaking is basically a black box containing magic that allows us to use a baitcaster without backlashing or at least reduces the chance. The method by which it controls the cast is purely magic so do not attempt to understand how it works just understand that it does...

Mitch

I knew there was a reasonable explanation.

[Mike L]

You guy's crack me up!!

Mike

[Mike L]

More nonsense information from some one who really does not know. I wish people would get their facts straight before giving advice to some one.

To the OP. Centri brakes are fine. Like IaBass8 said, set one or 2, maybe three depending on how you cast and use the tension knob for different lure weights. Once you get used to the reel then you can start to decrease the braking as you wish. There is always a small adjustment period with something new.

Eddie, no reason for your first statement. (Completely agree with your 2nd)

The man was giving his opinion which everyone else did.

If you disagree fine, no problem, take it or leave it alone.

That's my opinion

Mike

[TorqueConverter]

I will try to explain this in the most simple way that I can. Basically the spool and magnets act like a mini generator. Since the magnetic field is constant throughout a cast the only way to increase or decrease the voltage or current induced in the spool is to increase or decrease speed. the induced voltage and current in the spool create a magnetic field of their own, however the magnetic fields are opposite in direction which will cause "magnetic friction" (not a real term but its close to what happens, it is actually induced EMF) as the spool accelerates it increases the amount of "magnetic friction" (similar to centrifugal breaking systems, except its more about spool speed for centrifugal). Mathematically it would appear that magnetic breaking systems are designed to add breaking power proportional to the acceleration of the spool, where centrifugal systems are primarily dependent on speed. By the math it would appear that during the end of a cast a magnetic system actually helps the spool to spin due to the fact that the spool is decelerating causing the EMF to be positive rather than negative, which might explain why it is easier to get an overrun at the end of a mag breaks cast as compared to a cent. This is in no way exactly what is happening, but without mathematical formulas and a decent background in calculous this type of explanation should provide a basic understanding of the principals at work...

 

Mitch

 

Are you speaking about regular mag brakes or that digital shimano brake? 

 

Traditional mag brakes, if anything, seem to apply more breaking at the end of the cast.  The braking is actually uniform throughout the cast with conventional mag brakes but it is that the braking is more noticeable at slow spool speeds (like you encounter towards the end of the cast as the bait is sailing towards the target).  Conventional mag brakes are well suited to shortening casting distance so you don't overshoot your target while centrifugal are well suited to controlling spool acceleration mitigating the risk of the spool paying out line faster than the bait traveling in the air can take (backlash).

 

Dual braking is where it's at.  Even daiwa knows this and their magforce Z braking uses a centrifugal forces to extend the inductor closer to the mags.

[Raul]

Are you speaking about regular mag brakes or that digital shimano brake? 

 

Traditional mag brakes, if anything, seem to apply more breaking at the end of the cast.  The braking is actually uniform throughout the cast with conventional mag brakes but it is that the braking is more noticeable at slow spool speeds (like you encounter towards the end of the cast as the bait is sailing towards the target).  Conventional mag brakes are well suited to shortening casting distance so you don't overshoot your target while centrifugal are well suited to controlling spool acceleration mitigating the risk of the spool paying out line faster than the bait traveling in the air can take (backlash).

 

Dual braking is where it's at.  Even daiwa knows this and their magforce Z braking uses a centrifugal forces to extend the inductor closer to the mags.

WHUT ?

[desmobob]

I like braking.

 

Centrifugal.  Magnetic.  Dual.  Even the magic kind.

 

My thumb was held back two grades, was caught smoking in the boys room several times, and eventually dropped out of school.  If it wasn't for braking, my thumb would have probably grown up to be a burglar, con-man, arsonist, or U.S. Senator.

 

Tight lines,

Bob 

[mjseverson24]

Are you speaking about regular mag brakes or that digital shimano brake? 

 

Traditional mag brakes, if anything, seem to apply more breaking at the end of the cast.  The braking is actually uniform throughout the cast with conventional mag brakes but it is that the braking is more noticeable at slow spool speeds (like you encounter towards the end of the cast as the bait is sailing towards the target).  Conventional mag brakes are well suited to shortening casting distance so you don't overshoot your target while centrifugal are well suited to controlling spool acceleration mitigating the risk of the spool paying out line faster than the bait traveling in the air can take (backlash).

 

Dual braking is where it's at.  Even daiwa knows this and their magforce Z braking uses a centrifugal forces to extend the inductor closer to the mags.

I was talking about regular mag breaks... Based on the physical principals, the force exerted opposite the direction of spool rotation is proportional to the time rate of change of the angular velocity of the spool(partial derivative with respect to time of the induced magnetic field)... so mag breaks work primarily during the first part of the cast when the spool is accelerating from rest to top speed. After the spool reaches probably its max speed the effects of the mag breaks are very small (mathematically) due to the relatively slow rate of deceleration. This is not necessarily what I observe when using a mag break system, but this i believe is the principals for which their operation is based. It would not make sense to apply breaking pressure towards the end of the cast with an installed system as this would reduce casting performance. Cent breaks in the other hand have a much longer time of operation in each cast as they are speed dependent and not acceleration dependent. One way to verify this is to think about set it an forget it reels... All of the ones that come to mind are Cent breaking. not that mag breaks are not good they just require a little bit more talent from the person using the reel to get the most out of them... It seems like when I use mag break systems the cast control knob plays a much bigger role for me than it does for cent systems thus adding a small constant breaking force throughout the cast while with cent systems i could probably loose the control cap and not notice too much difference except the spool wobble... 

 

Mitch

[desmobob]

The observations I have about centrifugal vs. magnetic brakes were made with dual-braking reels (Lew's TP).  I noticed that when I attempt to go below two centrifugal brakes engaged, I get fluffing during the beginning and middle of the cast with heavy lures.  So I leave it set with two brakes engaged and can usually keep the magnetic brake setting very low.  

 

When setting the magnetic half of the braking, I notice that with it set light, I only get fluffing/backlash at the end of the cast with light lures.  This led me to be believe that centrifugal brakes do most of their work during the early parts of the cast and the magnetic brakes do most of their work at the end of the cast.

 

The only all-magnetic reels I have use the Magforce Z, which has what I guess I'd say have a "centrifugally enhanced" effect.  That would bolster my belief that the magnetic braking is more effective at the end of the cast, and Magforce Z uses the centrifugal enhancement to increase the magnetic braking effect during the early part of the cast where it might otherwise be lacking.

 

I always set the spool tension to allow each lure to free fall from a horizontal rod with just a few loose coils appearing on the spool when the lure hits the deck.

 

I was surprised to see the instruction manual for my new Daiwa PXL-R advises to set the spool tension loose; just tight enough to eliminate side-to-side spool slop, and to use the Magforce Z adjustment to prevent backlashing when casting various lure weights.  There was no suggestion or recommendation to further adjust the spool tension for different lure weights.

 

I know I've seen several posts here where guys say they always keep their spool tension loose.  I always figured setting proper spool tension was an important part of backlash-free casting.  

 

Do most guys leave it loose, or set it for each lure weight?

 

Tight lines,

Bob

[Jaheff]

I personally leave it loose and feather the spool with my thumb accordingly.

[aavery2]

 The braking is actually uniform throughout the cast with conventional mag brakes but it is that the braking is more noticeable at slow spool speeds (like you encounter towards the end of the cast as the bait is sailing towards the target). 

 

 

I am interested in your theory that magnetic braking is uniform throughout the cast.  Can you explain how it is you believe  that the magnetic force remains a constant on the spool during the entire cast.

[aavery2]

I was talking about regular mag breaks... Based on the physical principals, the force exerted opposite the direction of spool rotation is proportional to the time rate of change of the angular velocity of the spool(partial derivative with respect to time of the induced magnetic field)... so mag breaks work primarily during the first part of the cast when the spool is accelerating from rest to top speed. After the spool reaches probably its max speed the effects of the mag breaks are very small (mathematically) due to the relatively slow rate of deceleration. This is not necessarily what I observe when using a mag break system, but this i believe is the principals for which their operation is based. It would not make sense to apply breaking pressure towards the end of the cast with an installed system as this would reduce casting performance. Cent breaks in the other hand have a much longer time of operation in each cast as they are speed dependent and not acceleration dependent. One way to verify this is to think about set it an forget it reels... All of the ones that come to mind are Cent breaking. not that mag breaks are not good they just require a little bit more talent from the person using the reel to get the most out of them... It seems like when I use mag break systems the cast control knob plays a much bigger role for me than it does for cent systems thus adding a small constant breaking force throughout the cast while with cent systems i could probably loose the control cap and not notice too much difference except the spool wobble... 

 

Mitch

The other variable in this that has me really interested is mass, mass of the spool, it decreases with each revolution, so the  Counter EMF is acting on a lighter object towards the end of the cast.

[desmobob]

The other variable in this that has me really interested is mass, mass of the spool, it decreases with each revolution, so the  Counter EMF is acting on a lighter object towards the end of the cast.

 

 

Oh yeah!  Forgot all about that!  That could explain a lot.  I wonder what percentage of the rotating mass the line represents?  And how much weight of line is thrown on an average cast?  Anyone happen to know the weight-per-foot of various lines?

 

Tight lines,

Bob

[Blues19]

Dont be afraid of Centrifugal Brakes.  Its easy. Once you set it you dont really have to worry about it. I personally prefer the Centrifugal Brakes, but its because that is how I started. First 5-6 reels had them.   But really, its not too bad.

[Raul]

I was talking about regular mag breaks... Based on the physical principals, the force exerted opposite the direction of spool rotation is proportional to the time rate of change of the angular velocity of the spool(partial derivative with respect to time of the induced magnetic field)... so mag breaks work primarily during the first part of the cast when the spool is accelerating from rest to top speed. After the spool reaches probably its max speed the effects of the mag breaks are very small (mathematically) due to the relatively slow rate of deceleration. This is not necessarily what I observe when using a mag break system, but this i believe is the principals for which their operation is based. It would not make sense to apply breaking pressure towards the end of the cast with an installed system as this would reduce casting performance. Cent breaks in the other hand have a much longer time of operation in each cast as they are speed dependent and not acceleration dependent. One way to verify this is to think about set it an forget it reels... All of the ones that come to mind are Cent breaking. not that mag breaks are not good they just require a little bit more talent from the person using the reel to get the most out of them... It seems like when I use mag break systems the cast control knob plays a much bigger role for me than it does for cent systems thus adding a small constant breaking force throughout the cast while with cent systems i could probably loose the control cap and not notice too much difference except the spool wobble... 

 

Mitch

The observations I have about centrifugal vs. magnetic brakes were made with dual-braking reels (Lew's TP).  I noticed that when I attempt to go below two centrifugal brakes engaged, I get fluffing during the beginning and middle of the cast with heavy lures.  So I leave it set with two brakes engaged and can usually keep the magnetic brake setting very low.  

 

When setting the magnetic half of the braking, I notice that with it set light, I only get fluffing/backlash at the end of the cast with light lures.  This led me to be believe that centrifugal brakes do most of their work during the early parts of the cast and the magnetic brakes do most of their work at the end of the cast.

 

The only all-magnetic reels I have use the Magforce Z, which has what I guess I'd say have a "centrifugally enhanced" effect.  That would bolster my belief that the magnetic braking is more effective at the end of the cast, and Magforce Z uses the centrifugal enhancement to increase the magnetic braking effect during the early part of the cast where it might otherwise be lacking.

 

I always set the spool tension to allow each lure to free fall from a horizontal rod with just a few loose coils appearing on the spool when the lure hits the deck.

 

I was surprised to see the instruction manual for my new Daiwa PXL-R advises to set the spool tension loose; just tight enough to eliminate side-to-side spool slop, and to use the Magforce Z adjustment to prevent backlashing when casting various lure weights.  There was no suggestion or recommendation to further adjust the spool tension for different lure weights.

 

I know I've seen several posts here where guys say they always keep their spool tension loose.  I always figured setting proper spool tension was an important part of backlash-free casting.  

 

Do most guys leave it loose, or set it for each lure weight?

 

Tight lines,

Bob

WHUT ?

[Tywithay]

The observations I have about centrifugal vs. magnetic brakes were made with dual-braking reels (Lew's TP).  I noticed that when I attempt to go below two centrifugal brakes engaged, I get fluffing during the beginning and middle of the cast with heavy lures.  So I leave it set with two brakes engaged and can usually keep the magnetic brake setting very low.  

 

When setting the magnetic half of the braking, I notice that with it set light, I only get fluffing/backlash at the end of the cast with light lures.  This led me to be believe that centrifugal brakes do most of their work during the early parts of the cast and the magnetic brakes do most of their work at the end of the cast.

 

The only all-magnetic reels I have use the Magforce Z, which has what I guess I'd say have a "centrifugally enhanced" effect.  That would bolster my belief that the magnetic braking is more effective at the end of the cast, and Magforce Z uses the centrifugal enhancement to increase the magnetic braking effect during the early part of the cast where it might otherwise be lacking.

 

I always set the spool tension to allow each lure to free fall from a horizontal rod with just a few loose coils appearing on the spool when the lure hits the deck.

 

I was surprised to see the instruction manual for my new Daiwa PXL-R advises to set the spool tension loose; just tight enough to eliminate side-to-side spool slop, and to use the Magforce Z adjustment to prevent backlashing when casting various lure weights.  There was no suggestion or recommendation to further adjust the spool tension for different lure weights.

 

I know I've seen several posts here where guys say they always keep their spool tension loose.  I always figured setting proper spool tension was an important part of backlash-free casting.  

 

Do most guys leave it loose, or set it for each lure weight?

 

Tight lines,

Bob

With Magforce Z and Mag3d, I set it just tight enough to remove side-to-side wobble in the spool. I then set the Mag 3/4 of the way up and cast, then drop it a couple clicks until line starts to fluff up, then add 1 back. Do that when I first buy them, and rarely touch them after that. I don't think I've ever had a backlash with any of my MagZ reels that wasn't completely my fault (catching limbs on the backswing  )

[ChrisWi]

I ended up getting a Curado I instead of the Bb1. Liked it a lot better.

[Josh Smith]

Hi Folks!

 

Sounds like one of my discussions -- hehe!

 

Lenz' law sounds pretty intimidating.  It's not.

 

Here's the thing:  You're passing copper or aluminum through a magnetic field.  You know how a generator works?  That's all it is.  Same as your alternator on your car and if you put wires on the ends of the spool you'd charge a battery.  The faster it spins, the more resistance.

 

Centrifugal brakes provide the most braking at the beginning of the cast were it's really needed.

 

Mags do, too, to a point.  The curve is much more gradual on the mag brakes.

 

When the lure hits the water, I prefer to use my thumb to stop the spool.  I could go with a dual-braking setup and not mess with using my thumb, but that's just not my style.

 

If I use a dual-brake system and set both brakes, I can get a max of about 25 to 30 yards of casting distance.  If I turn the mags off on that same reel, I get out to at least 40 yards using a 3/4oz weight.  This is why I only have one dual-braking reel.  The rest are centrifugals.

 

On the 5500c3, I use three brakes (out of six) turned on.  I can (and have) go down to two, but I prefer to use three and less spool tension. 

 

On the 5500, 5000, 5000c, etc; the old Ambassadeurs that I use, I go with the lightest brake shoes they have.

 

For quality casts, you have to use your thumb.  The thumb can overcome the wind and dang near anything else you're liable to run into.  You start feeling the spool begin to fluff at all, you give some thumb braking.

 

Josh

[TorqueConverter]

I am interested in your theory that magnetic braking is uniform throughout the cast.  Can you explain how it is you believe  that the magnetic force remains a constant on the spool during the entire cast.

 

This pic best illustrates the uniformity of the mag braking in relation to spool speed.

[aavery2]

This pic best illustrates the uniformity of the mag braking in relation to spool speed. Cast_control.png

Thanks for the chart, I was wondering how linear the braking is.   Thought maybe there would be a curve in there somewhere.

[Josh Smith]

Maybe I'm just a gearhead at heart, but I view it like a car's distributor:  You have centrifugal advance and ported vacuum advance on those.  Sort of the same thing on the reels' brakes.

Josh

 

[Goose52]

Maybe I'm just a gearhead at heart, but I view it like a car's distributor:  You have centrifugal advance and ported vacuum advance on those.  Sort of the same thing on the reels' brakes.

Josh

 

Between your favored reels, and your description of some key functional elements of an automotive ignition system, I think you got off the technology bus in the 1970s.

 

 

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Josh Smith]

Between your favored reels, and your description of some key functional elements of an automotive ignition system, I think you got off the technology bus in the 1970s.

 

 

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

Hello,

 

I was born in '77!

 

I can do new cars too, but man, the old ones just have those classic lines as do the old Ambassadeur series.

 

Dad had an Ambassadeur 5000 he upgraded to 4.7:1 that he fished with when he took me starting at age two or three.  It's the first baitcasting reel I owned when he got a new Quantum.

 

Though I prefer '70s tech for the most part, there are things from my own era I prefer.  Even a cheap graphite rod, for example, is much more sensitive than my dad's "Lew's Tournament Grade" fiberglass '70s job.  I'm not sure how I ever got by with monofilament line as braid has allowed me to set the hook way further than I ever could with mono.  I did 35 yards this past summer.

 

I really like the first GM TBI setups.  Those were dead simple to work on.  Like a carburetor setup but with a nozzle shooting gas into the throttle body.  Love those things!  It satisfied emissions to the point that not a lot of extra crap had to be on the engine, too!

 

Josh

[Goose52]

I was born in '77!

 

Josh

 

I still drive a car, having both centrifugal and vacuum advance on the distributor, that I bought FIVE years before you were born........................ :lol:

[Josh Smith]

I still drive a car, having both centrifugal and vacuum advance on the distributor, that I bought FIVE years before you were born........................ :lol:

 

That's just cool.

 

What kind?