Home Defense And Collateral Damage

[Brian Needham]

I wish Arkansas had the Castle Doctrine............Oh how I miss Mississippi.

[Brian Needham]

good article.......has a GREAT chart of ammo, caliber, FPS, penetration, and expansion.

 

 

 

 

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/handgun-stopping-power-page-2/

[tstone]

Majority of home burglaries happen in daylight hours when kids are in school and the adults are at work.  An alarm system may be the best deterrent. 

 This is the truth. My house has been broken into twice, both times when I was not home. I have an alarm system, didn't help much.

[SirSnookalot]

 This is the truth. My house has been broken into twice, both times when I was not home. I have an alarm system, didn't help much.

Kind of reminds me when I had the scrap yard.  The building was equipped with alarms, as an older inner city building it was tape on the windows.  We'd have people coming in at night and taking the bricks out and walking right into the building without tripping the alarm........lol.  Luckily the street people didn't know what was valuable and what wasn't, we put the crap within easy access, they want in, you can't stop them.

[Stasher1]

.45 ACP with Glaser rounds. They wont go through a second layer of drywall. Its a hollow point filled with shrapnel suspended in Teflon. When impacting a soft target it will leave around a 1/2 in. entry hole and if at close enough range a basketball sized exit hole. Once the hollow point starts to expand and the shrapnel relases it devistates any organs or tissue in its path and causes MASSIVE internal bleeding. They also make it in 9mm and .40 caliber. Regardless of which handgun you purchase make sure you go to the range and become proficient with said weapon. Also remember there is a huge difference between shooting at a target and shooting at a possibly armed intruder. Adrenaline and nerves play a huge role in facing armed opposition. Letting emotions get in your way and not focusing 100 percent on your target will get hurt or killed. Do NOT shoot to injure your target, your objective is to neutralize the threat, and a wounded target is still a threat. You have as little as two seconds to aim and hit your target, not 10 seconds not five seconds you have at most around two. Unless you can get the drop on them. Hence why a shotgun is one of the most viable home defensese systems available. If I were you I would look more towards a 12 or 20 guage pistol grip shotty over a handgun. You have a much greater chance of hitting your target. Kind of a point and click type thing.

 

 

I don't know about the .45 Glaser, but the 9mm Glaser tested http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm'>HERE had no problem penetrating 6 layers of drywall.

[FD.]

I'm not an expert but here is what I have in the mag while in the house.

 

http://www.magsafeonline.com/

 

I have another mag with Hornaday hollow points when I carry.

[MyKeyBe]

I'll be the first to admit I really don't know a whole lot about guns. I do know I had a friend in high school whose stepdad used to beat around his mother. She got drunk and mad one night and got revenge. She shot him in the back of the neck with a .45. The bullet went through his neck, two walls of the house, and went about half an inch into the garage floor. It was a standard round. Not really sure if that makes a huge difference or not?

 

From what I've read and what little I know, I would also suggest a shotgun.

[Lil'skeeter]

I keep a 20 ga. available......never in a safe. The last thing I want to do in the middle of the night is try to open a safe when an intruder is in the house. Granted, I don't have young kids in the house and can appreciate your concern.

Glad I live in Texas.....

[Tony Monticelli]

home defense is not my responsibility lol, i got a wife for that.. both me and the dog are useless ounce we fall asleep that's it, someone could break in and ask me where the money is and id probably mumble about my wallet, then ***** about being asked something while sleeping and yell at them for a min, then roll over and fall back to sleep.

[papajoe222]

This was and still is a concern of mine.  My bedroom is at one end of the house and the others are at the other end.  Add the fact that the walls in my home are set on2X2's and penetration is a BIG concern.  After much consideration and conversation with other gun owners, I decided on frangable ammo for most of the rounds in my magazine.  I say most because every third round is a round nose jacketed designed for going through walls and such.  There may be instances where shooting through the wall of an intruder using it for cover is desired.

The other thing I'm a proponent of is a low stance, preferably down on one knee, inside the home.  This puts the tragectory of your bullets on an upward angle. Any wayward shots would continue on that angle and be less likely to injure other family members.  Lastly, You should train your loved ones accordingly. They should get down and stay down until you or authorities give them the okay.  It also gives you extra time to dispose of the threat should they enter their room as the perp would have to find them first, not to mention knowing that they are below your line of fire.

[Raider Nation Fisher]

This was and still is a concern of mine. My bedroom is at one end of the house and the others are at the other end. Add the fact that the walls in my home are set on2X2's and penetration is a BIG concern. After much consideration and conversation with other gun owners, I decided on frangable ammo for most of the rounds in my magazine. I say most because every third round is a round nose jacketed designed for going through walls and such. There may be instances where shooting through the wall of an intruder using it for cover is desired.

The other thing I'm a proponent of is a low stance, preferably down on one knee, inside the home. This puts the tragectory of your bullets on an upward angle. Any wayward shots would continue on that angle and be less likely to injure other family members. Lastly, You should train your loved ones accordingly. They should get down and stay down until you or authorities give them the okay. It also gives you extra time to dispose of the threat should they enter their room as the perp would have to find them first, not to mention knowing that they are below your line of fire.

Nothing penetrates better than steel jacketed rounds. Just load the mag down with JHP or alternate them with ball ammo. Just point squeeze and dump it on the intruder. Dont get me wrong I like frangable rounds. But thats just because they make a bloody gore splattered mess out of any soft targets they impacy with. If your in my home without permission Im not aiming for 2 center mass one to the head. I intend to saw you in half.

[upnorthbassin]

You're number one concern should be RESPONSIBILITY.  9mm doesn't have enough stopping power IMO.  Get a 40.

 

That may have been true many years ago but with technology the 9mm bullet design became much better. Looking at ballistic gel tests there's not much difference between a hot 9mm round (think +P or +P+) and .40S&W. A .45 even isn't really that much better compared to the others in the overall spread. I like all those rounds and I own guns chambered in them and reload for all of them. Compare a pistol round to a centerfire rifle round and there's a big gap. Compare a 9mm+P and a .40S&W and it's marginal at best if any. Stopping power for any service caliber pistol is adequate. I would buy whatever gun I shot best with rather than choosing because of caliber. Either a 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP,  or 357SIG, etc...they will all do the job with the right round. Just make sure you get a round that is designed not to penetrate as much and get a plan that would make it less likely that you would have to fire in the direction of something you didn't want to put a bullet into.

 

The canned answer is "get a pump shotgun". Pump shotguns are great and I own several. There's one problem with them though. Short stroking a pump shotgun under stress is very common. Go to a 3 gun competition and see the guys who shoot pumps. These guys train a lot and shoot a lot more than you're average person....but at some point one of them is gonna short stroke one of those pumps. If that can happen to them it can happen to you. If you miss with your first shot you may not even have time to rack in another shell and if you short stroke that, you are in big trouble.

 

Also suggesting a 20 gauge isn't much different than a 12 gauge. The 20 gauge shell holds less lead but the guns are usually smaller and lighter so the recoil ends up being pretty close in the end. I have 20 gauge guns that are more punishing than some of the 12 gauge guns I have. 00 buckshot will go through drywall like it was a piece of notebook paper. In fact, despite what a lot of people think, a .223 rifle round will not penetrate a house nearly as easily as most shotgun and pistol rounds (frangible rounds exluded). There's a myth that shotguns are harder to miss with but that's silliness. Look at a shot pattern of buckshot from an 18" pump gun at 10ft. It's pretty much one hole. If you are going to shoot at someone in your house and miss....you will miss just as easy with a shotgun at close range. At that close range the shot isn't going to spread much at all if any.

 

I would get whatever pistol you're most comfortable operating and shooting with whatever safety features you feel comfortable with. If you use it right, it will do the job. Think about using a round that won't penetrate barriers as much as others. If you like dogs, get a dog and have it trained. A pistol can be used in small spaces, it's easy to keep close and easy to operate. It can fire multiple times without reloading and nothing is required for it to keep firing other than pulling the trigger.

[upnorthbassin]

Oh, and take a training course or 2. They cost a lot of money but they are fun and you'll learn a lot. Some of the introductory ones provide the guns so you can use them in the class before you buy one and see what you like. Take a general type of one because some are real specialized. I've spent a boatload of money on them but it was worth every penny. I've met some nice people at them and learned a bunch. Plus, you do a ton of shooting at them so you're going to get better just from the practice.

[sarcazmo]

You're number one concern should be RESPONSIBILITY.  9mm doesn't have enough stopping power IMO.  Get a 40.

 

Dont buy in to the stopping power nonsense.  If you look up ballistic testing of 9mm in comparison to 40 cal you'll find the results are VERY similar.  I used to carry my M&P40c but have since replaced it with my CZ P-07 in 9mm.

 

For home defense honestly nothing beats a shotgun.  Its not only intimidating but it requires less effort to aim, shoot, and hit what you're targeting.

[Redlinerobert]

Get a stereo that plays the sound of a round chambering?  Really?  So when he comes at you use this. 

 

 

 

Benelli M4 for home defense.  Also, read this. 

 

http://survivalblog.com/2012/03/after-the-shooting-by-tupreco.html

[Sam]

Do you have a central station intrusion alarm?

 

Sound, light and time are an intruder's enemies.

 

Sound makes it known they are there; light shows where they are; and time makes it longer to break in.

 

My wife wants me to get a pistol to carry when we are out. She thinks we are sitting ducks in parking lots since she is recovering from back and hip surgery and walks with a cane. I am not too happy about carrying so the jury is still out on that request.

 

Great information included in this post. My rifles at home have trigger guards so it will take time to get the key, load the weapon and then get ready for an intruder.

 

The statement about getting sued is troubling. The truth is that the local prosecuters will prosecute you for defending your life and the lives of your loved ones if you use deadly force or shoot the intruder in the back. Defending property with deadly force is not a good defense.

 

I would like to read what our law enforcement friends on the Forum have to add to this discussion and to receive their comments and suggestions.

[Sam]

One other situation to think about: Having a perk walk into your house.

 

My wife is very concerned about unloading the car when she gets home. She tries to remember to close the garage door behind her but most of the time she forgets. So she is a sitting duck when she is unloading the car and has turned off the alarm system.

 

The second situation is when I am working in the yard or field. The garage door and deck sliding glass doors are open for anyone to walk in.

 

My wife will leave the front door unlocked when she is outside in the yard, too.

 

I hate to keep the house locked up while I amin the garden, yard of field but for safety sake I am considering doing this in the future.

 

If I carry, the hand gun is uncomfortable. There is no way to carry a shotgun with me.

 

So how do you guys approach this subject?

[SirSnookalot]

So how do you guys approach this subject?

 

A rotweiler 

[Dogman65]

Some things to think about....

 

Shotguns:  Sounds like a good idea up front however there are  couple problems.  They don't lend themselves to manuevering in tight spaces too well.  A short barrel can help but a handgun is much easier to deal with most of the time in a building search situation.  Second problem is securing your weapon should you have to do so to deal with some loser you caught in your house.  Granted you probably won't be handcuffing anyone but....if you need to go hands free there is no easy way to do so with a shotgun.  So say you have to call 911 once you've got everything under control, if you're alone you have to one-hand the shotgun.  They are generally  pretty difficult to swing, aim and fire one handed.  I know someone will post that the bad guy will be down so it's a non-issue.  That's not actually very likely, when it comes to it, most folks won't just shoot someone who just gave up or was just wounded and has now just given up.  So you may have to cover the guy while calling 911.  That's hard to do with a shotgun while one-handing it.   Yes racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun is intimidating, but if you've made the decision to confront the bad guy with a gun, be prepared to use it.  Don't assume they care about hearing a shotgun rack, if they are breaking into your house during a time when most folks are home, they have probably made the decision to use whatever weapon they brought to the party. 

 

Caliber:  Within reason shot placement is more important than the caliber you're using.  So the difference between 9mm, .40 and .45 isn't as important as the weapon you're most comfortable and experienced with.  There are penetration issues but this can be addressed to a certain degree with ammunition choices.  All of these rounds have a chance of penetrating walls.  You as the shooter must assume that it will and deal with it accordingly.  If your family is behind a wall the bad guy is in front of, you have no shot and that's just how it is.  Move until you do.  The same applies with exterior walls.  As a side note on frangible ammo.  The big problem with this stuff is the chance for under penetration of the suspect.  I prefer the more standard hollow point style ammo and use muzzle discipline to prevent collateral damage.  It's really important to end the fight asap, good penetration and bullet performance along with shot placement are key. 

 

 In terms of noise levels, you won't hear the shots you fire under those circumstances.  Noise levels of your gun are irrelevant.

 

Training is incredibly important.  You need to learn a good combat style of drawing, shooting, holstering, reloading and malfunction drills.  Then you need to practice them...alot.  Many folks don't realize that the first thing you lose during high stress situations in terms of ability is fine motor control.  Shooting a firearm requires alot of fine motor control.  Expect your accuracy to tank.  This means you're operating off muscle memory and it is incidentally why bad guys and good guys routinely miss each other from less than 10 feet in gunfights.  You build those skills and work on them until you don't have to think about how to do it, you just do it.  Assess, draw, point, fire.  Not much aiming goin on there....which is why you don't take a chance shooting near a wall your family is concealed behind.

The second part of training is learning what's ok and what's not ok.  The castle doctrine isn't a magic bullet that absolves you of responsibility.  Your individual state has laws regarding self defense and you need to learn them.  In general a reasonable person fearing death, sexual assault or maybe serious physical injury can use deadly force to defend themselves or others (ex. your family).  It's important that you know laws in your specific area. 

 

Gunsafes:  These are nice but if you're buying a firearm for home defense and keeping it in the gunsafe or even unloaded you may as well not buy the thing.  You likely won't have time to get to it.  So then the issue becomes child safety.  Lots of stuff to think about.

 

Oh and bad guys usually don't just fall over with a couple hits.  Be prepared to shoot until they are down, this may take many hits depending on mindset and mind altering drugs in the bad guy.  Why do you see stories in the news of police shooting bad guys multiple times?  Because it often takes multiple hits to shut humans down, so train with that in mind.

 

And yes, lawyers are for suspects.  States spend millions of dollars giving free legal service to the most violent criminals.  They spend comparitively little giving any service to victims whatsoever.

[jhoffman]

Castle Doctrine in PA.

 

Ruger .380 LCP with a crimson trace in a biolock lock box right next the bed. Lay my hand on it, time for business.